Slotspinner
Moderator
again, you have to prove otherwise as it was the same with Crazy Time - Burden of proof is on the accuser and since i dont see anyone proving it, ill stick with the official statements
Streamers advantages & RTP/Big wins (another it's RIGGED thread)
- Thread starter beetaillight
- Start date
- Status
Yes, of course. It goes both directions. It's just my opinion and I stand behind that.
I love Crazy Time. It's fantastic game, but I can tell you, after I realized it's motorized I started winning in that game. And I've played it since it was released.
beetaillight
New member
You guys are obviously correct. Innocent until proven guilty. I guess when it comes down to it, it's belief unless clearly proven or disproven.
There are ways to strengthen or weaken my initial "accusation" by looking at the code behind the casino websites on various casinos for both a regular player and a streamer and see if they are the same.
I think they will either be different meaning streamers get a different slot id, meaning a different version of the slot or the other option which is worse in my opinion is that the manipulation is done behind the scenes on the handshake between the provider and the casino.
In any case, the best thing to come from this thread is that people see it and maybe get some more insights as to what may or may not happen and maybe to look differently when they're watching a stream since things might not always be for them as they view it on stream.
I will keep my belief that there definitely is something going on in terms of big wins/RTP/whatever you wanna call it that makes streamers hit more big hits more frequently. Until something leaks and we'll see the truth I guess this will remain a strong belief.
And once again, it's important that add that most good and legit streamers probably aren't aware of such manipulations if they do exist. Legit streamers are awesome, give great content and entertainment and should remain. Just use caution when you deposit your own money. It's not like it's on TV.
There are ways to strengthen or weaken my initial "accusation" by looking at the code behind the casino websites on various casinos for both a regular player and a streamer and see if they are the same.
I think they will either be different meaning streamers get a different slot id, meaning a different version of the slot or the other option which is worse in my opinion is that the manipulation is done behind the scenes on the handshake between the provider and the casino.
In any case, the best thing to come from this thread is that people see it and maybe get some more insights as to what may or may not happen and maybe to look differently when they're watching a stream since things might not always be for them as they view it on stream.
I will keep my belief that there definitely is something going on in terms of big wins/RTP/whatever you wanna call it that makes streamers hit more big hits more frequently. Until something leaks and we'll see the truth I guess this will remain a strong belief.
And once again, it's important that add that most good and legit streamers probably aren't aware of such manipulations if they do exist. Legit streamers are awesome, give great content and entertainment and should remain. Just use caution when you deposit your own money. It's not like it's on TV.
olempiaps
New member
How can we debunk this you may ask?
Simple, you have the knowledge why don’t a couple of streamers allow you to look at the codes while they are playing to see if there is a different RTP version.
Highly doubt it anyone will accept to, kinda like the saying « Yeah i have a gf, but she goes to another school» . They protect everything based on «facts», but fail to realise that a casino is a business at the end of the day. Why bother with a 5% Edge that makes you millions a year when you can push that Edge Even further by bribing here and there and make billions. Just like any other industry this is norm.
beetaillight
New member
Yeah, I was about to throw that into the air that maybe a streamer can do some kind of investigation on their own, but obviously there would be little motivation for any streamer to do that. Not when it's just in the sake of "seeking the truth".
*Looks for a streamer to pick up the glove*
The way things are now, it's a win win situation for streamers and casinos as one (lose lose if you're a regular gambler but nothing's perfect I guess). Casinos get tons of deposits, streamers get their share + perks to keep their streams running and buying a new Rolex once a year and the money's rolling.
*Looks for a streamer to pick up the glove*
The way things are now, it's a win win situation for streamers and casinos as one (lose lose if you're a regular gambler but nothing's perfect I guess). Casinos get tons of deposits, streamers get their share + perks to keep their streams running and buying a new Rolex once a year and the money's rolling.
Janalleman
New member
There is no way streamers get better wins based on different rtp settings. It's all very easy to explain why streamers get regular high x wins.
Most streamers promote a casino and they both want to gain from that:
Casino: promotion, new sign ups and more profit.
Streamer: affiliate income, deposit bonus and profit!
A quote that would fit the majority of casino streams these days: ''When u have nothing to lose, it's no gambling''
Streamers play either with a deposit bonus, got affiliate income or get cashbacks up to 100%**.
**Yes, this is the new trend (probably an old one aswell). Streamers with absolutely zero risk, gambling infinite funds on 'trusted' casino's.
An example would be 'Xposed'. Infinite 2.500€ reloads with zero risk taking. Like hitting 100k or even 250k is hard that way..
Anyway, he is actually 'clear' about it, though it would be naive to think he keeps 25% of winnings, based on casino gains.
So there def. is casino streamers out there with cashback deals, who are not clear about it. So no risk involved in losing money.
All these 'streamer advantages' lead to bigger wins, based on actual playtime; u can chase a big win, if u don't care about the losses chasing it.
Many have proven this over and over again on doa2 or even jammin' jars. Obv luck is still involved aswell.
I personally lowstake chase aswell, which has given me several 1000-10.000x wins. This can be very costly, even at 20 cent.
The reason streamers get more big wins is all based on the actual money invested. And overall those big wins don't put them directly in profit.
This is a mixture of a casino edge (due to affiliate gains) and affiliate income, based on a set target.
This also explains why a lot of streamers play those ridiculous stakes. If there is no risk involved in them, so why not.
When the affiliate is doing a good job, the stakes will grow with it. This is why all 'popular' streamers end up with 5-100€ spins.
Anyway, I could write a book about this tbh and I am not an expert at all.
Conclusion is: there is so much easier ways to gain big wins as manipulating slots rtp.
And streamers DO have a higher RTP, based on affiliate gains.
Most streamers promote a casino and they both want to gain from that:
Casino: promotion, new sign ups and more profit.
Streamer: affiliate income, deposit bonus and profit!
A quote that would fit the majority of casino streams these days: ''When u have nothing to lose, it's no gambling''
Streamers play either with a deposit bonus, got affiliate income or get cashbacks up to 100%**.
**Yes, this is the new trend (probably an old one aswell). Streamers with absolutely zero risk, gambling infinite funds on 'trusted' casino's.
An example would be 'Xposed'. Infinite 2.500€ reloads with zero risk taking. Like hitting 100k or even 250k is hard that way..
Anyway, he is actually 'clear' about it, though it would be naive to think he keeps 25% of winnings, based on casino gains.
So there def. is casino streamers out there with cashback deals, who are not clear about it. So no risk involved in losing money.
All these 'streamer advantages' lead to bigger wins, based on actual playtime; u can chase a big win, if u don't care about the losses chasing it.
Many have proven this over and over again on doa2 or even jammin' jars. Obv luck is still involved aswell.
I personally lowstake chase aswell, which has given me several 1000-10.000x wins. This can be very costly, even at 20 cent.
The reason streamers get more big wins is all based on the actual money invested. And overall those big wins don't put them directly in profit.
This is a mixture of a casino edge (due to affiliate gains) and affiliate income, based on a set target.
This also explains why a lot of streamers play those ridiculous stakes. If there is no risk involved in them, so why not.
When the affiliate is doing a good job, the stakes will grow with it. This is why all 'popular' streamers end up with 5-100€ spins.
Anyway, I could write a book about this tbh and I am not an expert at all.
Conclusion is: there is so much easier ways to gain big wins as manipulating slots rtp.
And streamers DO have a higher RTP, based on affiliate gains.
beetaillight
New member
As stated in previous posts, as much as I cannot say 100% there is a higher RTP for streamers, you cannot say they do not, unless you can prove it somehow - which you can't.
Regarding what you said: "
Most streamers promote a casino and they both want to gain from that:
Casino: promotion, new sign ups and more profit.
Streamer: affiliate income, deposit bonus and profit!"
Let me ask you a simple question:
What would make you more likely to deposit a money in casino X instead of Y when you're watching a streamer promoting them both and the bonuses you get are the same. Or even what would drive you to deposit at all for that matter? The answer is simple: you want to get the hits the streamer is getting and basically you want to win big for as low as possible, like most of us.
Would it be more likely you'll deposit after seeing a streamer winning 10,000x (like Daske on San Quntin yesterday) or after they fail again and again?
I think the answer here is obvious, so casino promotion is not only on the bonuses you get, it's also on the likelyhood you'll deposit once you're seeing someone play the casino and streamers do a service when they play casinos and casinos have as much incentive to have the streamers win big as often as possible. They give money to the streamers, give bonuses and pay their profits, so why shouldn't they use the streamer's influence and screen time to make the casino as attractive as possible by winning big and winning often.
Oh, Daske just won 1000x on Honey rush.. been playing that lot for a year as it's my fav. Max I got was 550x. Interesting...
Open your eyes people...
dirtystack
New member
Bet you continue gambling despite the “obvious” rigging.
beetaillight
New member
Less than before, but yeah.
I must say that 99% of the posts were all in favor of the fact that there is no rigging whatsoever and streamers get only advantage in terms of bonuses, etc...
I find this very interesting.. where do you guys get the confidence that there's no way this could happen? Do you have some hidden data which you're holding off? please, share with everyone the reason for your confidence.
I guess it must seem weird that a business which is driven by money in such a shady industry will be out to get your money in whatever means necessary, including lying, manipulating and cheating. I guess no one experienced these kinds of things from casinos ever. You're obviously some lucky bastards
Withholding funds, fine.. scamming on bonuses, fine.. but manipulating RTP so it would look like this casino is the best casino around and you're bound to hit a 10000x on your 2nd spin.. that's definitely crossing a red line... is it?
dirtystack
New member
Yeah it would be crossing the line.
It would also be crossing a line if they used that camera on your laptop to spy on and record you while you masturbate and then, once you hit big and tried to cashout, they threatened to release the video unless you reverse your withdrawal and loose all your balance.
You can't prove that the above doesn't happen. I can't prove that it does, and you can't prove that it doesn't. Until you can prove that it doesn't happen then we need to assume that it does happen. I mean think about it, it's obviously happening this way as they are shady businesses out to get you money by any means possible. Please share your reasons why you are confident that this isn't happening as I prefer to masturbate without fear like you lucky bastards.
What do you think guys, is this fair?
Ah
What I am trying to say is that you've made a line which it would be out of order if they crossed, but it is a line of your creation and you talk about it as though it is factual. You don't have any idea and if you really think this is happening then going to the UKGC - they love investigating, auditing and dishing out big fines for non compliance.
Why not get a a job with on of the slot providers and expose them if you have the background in networking - they are not some secretive industry, they are just like any other business; full of employees who really do not give a fuck about the investment company that owns them. If this was happening, outside of some rogue operations, then it would be known rather then guessed at.
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beetaillight
New member
That's exactly what i'm talking about, there is no line to cross. If there was no regulation at all, they would be cheating you 100% of the time. Regulation is the only thing which holds them at not going full bananas.
Remember, casinos and providers are both business operations which have 1 aim - to get people to deposit and eliminate the threat of withdrawals as much as they possibly can.
Regarding the masturbation thing, there are 2 things preventing that: 1. ACTUAL criminal laws which don't fall on some obscure regulatory but actual state laws and 2. planting cameras and blackmail is not their business and what they do and excel in. Gambling is.
For the last argument which seems to prevail for some reason: "if there is fraud, people would have heard it by now". First of all streaming slots in a scale where rigging RTP is actually beneficial is pretty new. Until a few years ago there was no need for this action as streaming at its infancy. Second of all, even if this sort of manipulation is done, I believe the number of employees that actually have access to the offending code is very limited. Add NDA to that, add possible lawsuit in case of breach and add the simple fact that there's no actual gain in revealing these secrets for these employees other than revenge possibly. Furthermore, it's not like going to CNN saying "casinos are cheating" or "slot providers are cheating" will actually raise any eyebrows, especially as gambing is illegal is many countries as it is.
Furthermore, as I said before, regulation is scarce at best and when dealing with regulation software, it's easy to dodge it. Furthermore, it's not like every version and every software patch is scrutinized by the regulator. They make audit every X time.
Remember, casinos and providers are both business operations which have 1 aim - to get people to deposit and eliminate the threat of withdrawals as much as they possibly can.
Regarding the masturbation thing, there are 2 things preventing that: 1. ACTUAL criminal laws which don't fall on some obscure regulatory but actual state laws and 2. planting cameras and blackmail is not their business and what they do and excel in. Gambling is.
For the last argument which seems to prevail for some reason: "if there is fraud, people would have heard it by now". First of all streaming slots in a scale where rigging RTP is actually beneficial is pretty new. Until a few years ago there was no need for this action as streaming at its infancy. Second of all, even if this sort of manipulation is done, I believe the number of employees that actually have access to the offending code is very limited. Add NDA to that, add possible lawsuit in case of breach and add the simple fact that there's no actual gain in revealing these secrets for these employees other than revenge possibly. Furthermore, it's not like going to CNN saying "casinos are cheating" or "slot providers are cheating" will actually raise any eyebrows, especially as gambing is illegal is many countries as it is.
Furthermore, as I said before, regulation is scarce at best and when dealing with regulation software, it's easy to dodge it. Furthermore, it's not like every version and every software patch is scrutinized by the regulator. They make audit every X time.
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dirtystack
New member
You are talking about it like it is a fact again.
If you are so convinced then investigate. Do something about it. Uncover it and expose it. Go work for a slot provider and gather information. There is no amount of speculating that is going to uncover anything.
You should also read up on how NDA's actually work and when they are waived. An NDA is nothing outside the USA and their odd mentality. They mean nothing when the NDA is broken to expose something immoral, wrong, damaging.
You should contact and interact with the UKGC and maybe you would understand how rigid they are and how it is impossible to get any leeway with them.
You should also investigate how gambling actually works.
Just coming up with excuses to dismiss anything that is against what you are saying, based on what you believe, well, it is certainly a waste of my time responding. There is nothing I can say which will change this sense that you have. If you are that convinced then do something about it as what you are currently doing serves no purpose. You are posing an idea and reinforcing it within yourself without any actual evidence or inside knowledge - this is normal human behaviour and I do it myself all the bloody time.
Casinos are not some big secret, there are no looser lips then those of the employees in the casino sector. Go and find out for sure, discover, gather presentable evidence. Then you would be doing something worthwhile. It's good to have a purpose, so make it your purpose, just don't get blinded by it and don't assume everyone who responds to you has an ulterior motive.
If you are so convinced then investigate. Do something about it. Uncover it and expose it. Go work for a slot provider and gather information. There is no amount of speculating that is going to uncover anything.
You should also read up on how NDA's actually work and when they are waived. An NDA is nothing outside the USA and their odd mentality. They mean nothing when the NDA is broken to expose something immoral, wrong, damaging.
You should contact and interact with the UKGC and maybe you would understand how rigid they are and how it is impossible to get any leeway with them.
You should also investigate how gambling actually works.
Just coming up with excuses to dismiss anything that is against what you are saying, based on what you believe, well, it is certainly a waste of my time responding. There is nothing I can say which will change this sense that you have. If you are that convinced then do something about it as what you are currently doing serves no purpose. You are posing an idea and reinforcing it within yourself without any actual evidence or inside knowledge - this is normal human behaviour and I do it myself all the bloody time.
Casinos are not some big secret, there are no looser lips then those of the employees in the casino sector. Go and find out for sure, discover, gather presentable evidence. Then you would be doing something worthwhile. It's good to have a purpose, so make it your purpose, just don't get blinded by it and don't assume everyone who responds to you has an ulterior motive.
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Stevej
New member
@dirtystack Why always so negative? What’s the point of bringing masturbation to this conversation?
I’ve said this million times, and now underlining this is my opinion as there’s always somebody crying because of this: these things are more or less rigged. But it’s not that they would do something illegal, but it’s the gambling laws that are too soft.
I’m still asking if anybody knows where can I read about those laws?
I also think it’s really important to have these ”it’s rigged” conversations. It adds some pressure to providers and casinos. Maybe, I mean maybe, it could change some day, but probably going to worse...
I’ve said this million times, and now underlining this is my opinion as there’s always somebody crying because of this: these things are more or less rigged. But it’s not that they would do something illegal, but it’s the gambling laws that are too soft.
I’m still asking if anybody knows where can I read about those laws?
I also think it’s really important to have these ”it’s rigged” conversations. It adds some pressure to providers and casinos. Maybe, I mean maybe, it could change some day, but probably going to worse...
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dirtystack
New member
When looking for information, that is freely available to the public, it is normally best to look in the public domain.
try google
click a UKGC link and see where it leads you.
It’s partially why I get so annoyed as there is no effort put in by you guys, just speculation, and stroking each other to climax.
try google
click a UKGC link and see where it leads you.
It’s partially why I get so annoyed as there is no effort put in by you guys, just speculation, and stroking each other to climax.
beetaillight
New member
Unfortunately, I don't have resources to conduct a proper investigation as i'm working full time and a father to 2 small kids. Besides that, a proper investigation would require getting into code and will require the cooperation of one of the bigger streamers, which I doubt i'll get.
The whole point of my post is not to throw accusations in the air and contradicting what people comment. I base it solely on my experience from my playtime of over a year and watching streamers on a daily basis for that period which, mind you, is quite a bit of data collected and I have presented my data as far as I can.
The point of this debate is to give my speculation and numbers and hear what the good people of the forum has to offer. Since all posts were in the lines of "RTP is not manipulated, period" and "where's your proof", they added little information to my original question and resulted me in debunking what most of them wrote (quite easily I might add).
In the end, this is all in the realm of speculation. I have an advantage though - my theory cannot be disproven and can only be proven or weakened. Enough that one person comes forward from within the industry to prove my theory. The fact that this post had received over 1k views means that people do find it interesting and maybe someone can offer more concise proof either way.
The whole point of my post is not to throw accusations in the air and contradicting what people comment. I base it solely on my experience from my playtime of over a year and watching streamers on a daily basis for that period which, mind you, is quite a bit of data collected and I have presented my data as far as I can.
The point of this debate is to give my speculation and numbers and hear what the good people of the forum has to offer. Since all posts were in the lines of "RTP is not manipulated, period" and "where's your proof", they added little information to my original question and resulted me in debunking what most of them wrote (quite easily I might add).
In the end, this is all in the realm of speculation. I have an advantage though - my theory cannot be disproven and can only be proven or weakened. Enough that one person comes forward from within the industry to prove my theory. The fact that this post had received over 1k views means that people do find it interesting and maybe someone can offer more concise proof either way.
Stevej
New member
I found this one:
https://lawstrust.com/en/licence/gambling/rng-certificate
It’s difficult to find any clear info. What do they mean by:
”... Casinos, supporting policy of game honesty and transparency of payments, have standard generator settings (defined algorithm for generating random numbers), which give players a chance to win. However, some virtual rooms of gambling alter program code so that making profit from any kind of gaming machines by the client becomes impossible.”
[SIZE=15.359999656677246px]What are these virtual rooms? Evolution gaming? Lol.[/SIZE]
https://lawstrust.com/en/licence/gambling/rng-certificate
It’s difficult to find any clear info. What do they mean by:
”... Casinos, supporting policy of game honesty and transparency of payments, have standard generator settings (defined algorithm for generating random numbers), which give players a chance to win. However, some virtual rooms of gambling alter program code so that making profit from any kind of gaming machines by the client becomes impossible.”
[SIZE=15.359999656677246px]What are these virtual rooms? Evolution gaming? Lol.[/SIZE]
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Stevej
New member
Okey now I found something more interesting.
https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/Remote-gambling-and-software-technical-standards.pdf
I’ve seen more precise descriptions of certain laws. I mean, like this live dealer section, it leaves many things open. Obviously nobody cares.
”it iz what it iz...”
https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/Remote-gambling-and-software-technical-standards.pdf
I’ve seen more precise descriptions of certain laws. I mean, like this live dealer section, it leaves many things open. Obviously nobody cares.
”it iz what it iz...”
dirtystack
New member
Stevej
Last time.
This is Law Practice who will take care of the legal side of things when you are attempting to acquire an operating licence.
Its like a Real Estate agent that you use to buy a house, they take care of the paperwork, they take your fee and give it to the seller, the seller gives the agent the deed to the property and pass that to you. It's all documented along the way and the Real Estate agent makes sure everything is signed and correct.
That paragraph, and that whole sites looks like it has been translated to English, from Russian, via Google translate, is trying to convey the difference between a legitimate licenced casino and a rogue one. That there are honest casinos and dishonest casinos, that if you want to get a licence you need to be the honest version and that having said licence will convey to your customers that you can be trusted. It is trying to say that it is important you get RNG certified so people know you can be trusted. The English, is admittedly terrible on this site.
It's not really what you are looking for but, if you can find something similar with competently translated native language then you will learn something.
Keep looking though as you are on the right track.
Once you actually find some legit information to digest your response is "Obviously noone cares - it iz what it iz..."
And you wonder why I am hostile.
Last time.
This is Law Practice who will take care of the legal side of things when you are attempting to acquire an operating licence.
Its like a Real Estate agent that you use to buy a house, they take care of the paperwork, they take your fee and give it to the seller, the seller gives the agent the deed to the property and pass that to you. It's all documented along the way and the Real Estate agent makes sure everything is signed and correct.
That paragraph, and that whole sites looks like it has been translated to English, from Russian, via Google translate, is trying to convey the difference between a legitimate licenced casino and a rogue one. That there are honest casinos and dishonest casinos, that if you want to get a licence you need to be the honest version and that having said licence will convey to your customers that you can be trusted. It is trying to say that it is important you get RNG certified so people know you can be trusted. The English, is admittedly terrible on this site.
It's not really what you are looking for but, if you can find something similar with competently translated native language then you will learn something.
What you are looking at is JUST the technical standards, it is a very small part of the legislation.
Keep looking though as you are on the right track.
Once you actually find some legit information to digest your response is "Obviously noone cares - it iz what it iz..."
And you wonder why I am hostile.
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dirtystack
New member
My work here is done.
- Status
