Videoslots RTP scam or no???

[FreeWheelerBaby]

I was searching around the @videoslots website a couple of weeks ago and noticed the my RTP section, which stated mine at 97% there is no way I had an RTP at 94.75% when I was 13K down. So began investigating into it, and then emailed support for answers. I was already fed up with them delaying any winnings and delaying any wins from the slots battles, so this got my back up even more. 
 

Dear Videoslots

 
It has came to my attention recently that I can view my RTP, however it states my overall RTP is 94.75 which quite shocks me, as I would estimate my RTP to be more like 52% maybe a little bit more…! 
 
I noticed that my highest RTP in a game is 4,565.48 on Santa and the biggest win is £190 on a 0.60GBP bet. I also notice a huge single spike whilst playing on Santa, however I don’t see how this spike is so high and what caused the RTP of 4, 565.48? 
 
Kirsty (cherrybun)
 
I took a screen shot and then logged in 5 minites later and took another one just look at the change in the RTP its went from 94% to 39% then back to 94% 
 
Notice that I have over 15000% RTP on santa. This was one of those slot battles I won 500 free spins at 0.1 bets size, so they have calculated those towards the RTP, however my biggest win on Santa was £160 on a 0.6 bets size, so were they are getting 15000% from I have no idea. 
 
They wrote back to me 
Your RTP query has been sent to the operations team so that they can take a look and see why there was a decrease in just a few minutes, they will ensure that everything is in order and will advise via email 
 
I am just not happy at all its bad enough being a UK player and disadvantaged as can not buy bonuses, but to have the RTP played with like this is fowl @videoslots. Can anyone make sense of this as it looks like they have used free spins won on slots battle against my RTP. Should this be allowed? Is it in the rules, because I cant find it in the terms and conditions! This whole RTP is very strange how it can just drop so much out of nowhere after I sent them the screen shots! 
 
 
 

 

 

[joshnadin]

View attachment 32030

Notice that I have over 15000% RTP on santa. This was one of those slot battles I won 500 free spins at 0.1 bets size, so they have calculated those towards the RTP, however my biggest win on Santa was £160 on a 0.6 bets size, so were they are getting 15000% from I have no idea.

The stated RTP here is correct.

If we take your average bet of £0.40 and apply it as a percentage to your biggest win, above is the percentage.
Then, if we divide that by the three spins per session you've done, you end up with an RTP of 15,838%.
I'm assuming one of the other two spins was a loss, and the other a very small win, from what your 'hit rate' is. That would leave you (approximately) with what Videoslots is saying.

--

But, I think you're overanalysing the RTP section that Videoslots has to offer.
It's a very rough guide at best, and will not always be entirely accurate. The system also takes a good while to update and isn't real-time information, so even if you have had no activity for a good while, the statistics can change unexpectedly.

I've played at Videoslots for 8+ years and they're one of the most reputable brands out there. They're not up to anything underhand, or trying to mug you off in any way.

Can anyone make sense of this as it looks like they have used free spins won on slots battle against my RTP. Should this be allowed? Is it in the rules, because I cant find it in the terms and conditions!

What's the issue if free spins have contributed to your overall RTP percentage?
It doesn't leave you at a disadvantage, or advantage either way. The result of your free spins play can not influence any of your real money play.

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

View attachment 32034

The stated RTP here is correct.

If we take your average bet of £0.40 and apply it as a percentage to your biggest win, above is the percentage.
Then, if we divide that by the three spins per session you've done, you end up with an RTP of 15,838%.
I'm assuming one of the other two spins was a loss, and the other a very small win, from what your 'hit rate' is. That would leave you (approximately) with what Videoslots is saying.

--

But, I think you're overanalysing the RTP section that Videoslots has to offer.
It's a very rough guide at best, and will not always be entirely accurate. The system also takes a good while to update and isn't real-time information, so even if you have had no activity for a good while, the statistics can change unexpectedly.

I've played at Videoslots for 8+ years and they're one of the most reputable brands out there. They're not up to anything underhand, or trying to mug you off in any way.

What's the issue if free spins have contributed to your overall RTP percentage?
It doesn't leave you at a disadvantage, or advantage either way. The result of your free spins play can not influence any of your real money play.

@joshnadinI don’t really know how the RTP is calculated, however the RTP went down so fast within 5 minutes then back up to its usual and stayed there it would take a long period of time to change so drastically. It would bother me if the free spins went to my RTP because I would get a more realistic view of my real RTP, how can I be 13K down but showing as 94% RTP ! 
 

I also asked the live chat a couple of weeks ago if the RTP to UK players is lower, and they told me no its the same for everyone across the board, then I came across this on a forum yesterday, I was just gobsmacked. 

 

[joshnadin]

@joshnadinI don’t really know how the RTP is calculated, however the RTP went down so fast within 5 minutes then back up to its usual and stayed there it would take a long period of time to change so drastically. It would bother me if the free spins went to my RTP because I would get a more realistic view of my real RTP, how can I be 13K down but showing as 94% RTP ! 

Okay, sure.
I understand that it's frustrating that your 'actual' RTP may not be accurately reflected, but it doesn't affect your gameplay, or odds of winning or losing.

I also asked the live chat a couple of weeks ago if the RTP to UK players is lower, and they told me no its the same for everyone across the board, then I came across this on a forum yesterday, I was just gobsmacked. 

The RTP is generally the same across the board, however games from certain providers, in most cases Play n'Go, do have different versions of games available to casinos. Casinos may decide to offer the lower RTP versions to customers in certain countries, for a variety of different reasons. Some Play n'Go games have been seen with less than 90% RTP which is pretty disgusting.
I kind of get why casinos have to do this in order to have a sustainable business model. For example, if they didn't do this in Germany, the gambling taxes are so ridiculously high that the casinos would actually lose money on the game.

I always recommend players get into the habit of checking every games RTP before playing. If it's lower than 95ish%, close it and stay away. There are much better games for you to be playing. It's frustrating having to check this, and all providers should clearly show the games RTP on the loading screen without having to look into the games menu, just like @Push Gamingdo.

As smart gamblers, its our responsibility to make intelligent choices that maximise the potential to have profitable sessions and lose the minimum over the long term. Aside from this, if more people simply didn't play the low RTP versions of games, they would slowly disappear from the market. But unfortunately, your average recreational player doesn't understand what RTP is, and will not check it or care about it.

 

[dispenseri]

I do believe Videoslots offer lower RTP versions for all countries. When you play there it's best to stick to providers which don't have multiple RTP versions (Big Time Gaming, Relax, Push come to mind).

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

Okay, sure.
I understand that it's frustrating that your 'actual' RTP may not be accurately reflected, but it doesn't affect your gameplay, or odds of winning or losing.

The RTP is generally the same across the board, however games from certain providers, in most cases Play n'Go, do have different versions of games available to casinos. Casinos may decide to offer the lower RTP versions to customers in certain countries, for a variety of different reasons. Some Play n'Go games have been seen with less than 90% RTP which is pretty disgusting.
I kind of get why casinos have to do this in order to have a sustainable business model. For example, if they didn't do this in Germany, the gambling taxes are so ridiculously high that the casinos would actually lose money on the game.

I always recommend players get into the habit of checking every games RTP before playing. If it's lower than 95ish%, close it and stay away. There are much better games for you to be playing. It's frustrating having to check this, and all providers should clearly show the games RTP on the loading screen without having to look into the games menu, just like @Push Gamingdo.

As smart gamblers, its our responsibility to make intelligent choices that maximise the potential to have profitable sessions and lose the minimum over the long term. Aside from this, if more people simply didn't play the low RTP versions of games, they would slowly disappear from the market. But unfortunately, your average recreational player doesn't understand what RTP is, and will not check it or care about it.

No wonder I constantly lose if they are using different skins for UK players that is just wrong and if you look at them screen shots I am 30% less advantaged. I need to find out whats going on with these sides because they are just doing anything unbeknown to the player. I win more at the fair slots in Blackpool it’s ridiculous. I wouldn’t mind I have mostly played play n go and pragmatic…! 

Okay, sure.
I understand that it's frustrating that your 'actual' RTP may not be accurately reflected, but it doesn't affect your gameplay, or odds of winning or losing.

The RTP is generally the same across the board, however games from certain providers, in most cases Play n'Go, do have different versions of games available to casinos. Casinos may decide to offer the lower RTP versions to customers in certain countries, for a variety of different reasons. Some Play n'Go games have been seen with less than 90% RTP which is pretty disgusting.
I kind of get why casinos have to do this in order to have a sustainable business model. For example, if they didn't do this in Germany, the gambling taxes are so ridiculously high that the casinos would actually lose money on the game.

I always recommend players get into the habit of checking every games RTP before playing. If it's lower than 95ish%, close it and stay away. There are much better games for you to be playing. It's frustrating having to check this, and all providers should clearly show the games RTP on the loading screen without having to look into the games menu, just like @Push Gamingdo.

As smart gamblers, its our responsibility to make intelligent choices that maximise the potential to have profitable sessions and lose the minimum over the long term. Aside from this, if more people simply didn't play the low RTP versions of games, they would slowly disappear from the market. But unfortunately, your average recreational player doesn't understand what RTP is, and will not check it or care about it.

I wouldn’t mind but the fact I was going to become affiliate streamer with them and take mostly UK players to them WTF 

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

Okay, sure.
I understand that it's frustrating that your 'actual' RTP may not be accurately reflected, but it doesn't affect your gameplay, or odds of winning or losing.

The RTP is generally the same across the board, however games from certain providers, in most cases Play n'Go, do have different versions of games available to casinos. Casinos may decide to offer the lower RTP versions to customers in certain countries, for a variety of different reasons. Some Play n'Go games have been seen with less than 90% RTP which is pretty disgusting.
I kind of get why casinos have to do this in order to have a sustainable business model. For example, if they didn't do this in Germany, the gambling taxes are so ridiculously high that the casinos would actually lose money on the game.

I always recommend players get into the habit of checking every games RTP before playing. If it's lower than 95ish%, close it and stay away. There are much better games for you to be playing. It's frustrating having to check this, and all providers should clearly show the games RTP on the loading screen without having to look into the games menu, just like @Push Gamingdo.

As smart gamblers, its our responsibility to make intelligent choices that maximise the potential to have profitable sessions and lose the minimum over the long term. Aside from this, if more people simply didn't play the low RTP versions of games, they would slowly disappear from the market. But unfortunately, your average recreational player doesn't understand what RTP is, and will not check it or care about it.

@joshnadinI am not so sure it doesn’t affect my game play…I would like to know what tools they are using to work out RTP to player? If they can use different games for different players they are capable of anything! 

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

@joshnadinI am not so sure it doesn’t affect my game play…I would like to know what tools they are using to work out RTP to player? If they can use different games for different players they are capable of anything! 

I actually play on @partyCasino who are good I feel I get fare play from @Unibet @sky @videoslots @mrvegas @WilliamHill @Novibet 

 

[joshnadin]

@joshnadinI am not so sure it doesn’t affect my game play…I would like to know what tools they are using to work out RTP to player?

I am very sure that it doesn't affect your gameplay. A slot machine can't look at a previous result and use any information from it to determine what it is going to do next. Every spin is independent.

Return To Player is one of the most simple things for anyone to work out. The total amount returned divided by the total amount gambled.
If you bet £100 and received £70 back, you have a 70% RTP. If you bet £10,000 and receive £50,000 back, you have a 500% RTP, for example.

 If they can use different games for different players they are capable of anything! 

It's not really different games for different 'players', it's more country specific. You're not being treated any more fairly or unfairly than anyone else in the U.K.

Plus, Videoslots is not the only online casino that offers lower RTP on Play n'Go. It's unfortunately the majority, rather than the minority of casinos now.

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

I am very sure that it doesn't affect your gameplay. A slot machine can't look at a previous result and use any information from it to determine what it is going to do next. Every spin is independent.

Return To Player is one of the most simple things for anyone to work out. The total amount returned divided by the total amount gambled.
If you bet £100 and received £70 back, you have a 70% RTP. If you bet £10,000 and receive £50,000 back, you have a 500% RTP, for example.

It's not really different games for different 'players', it's more country specific. You're not being treated any more fairly or unfairly than anyone else in the U.K.

Plus, Videoslots is not the only online casino that offers lower RTP on Play n'Go. It's unfortunately the majority, rather than the minority of casinos now.

@joshnadinI wonder what my chances are of hitting a max win on pragmatic! Probably zero, I just wish I knew, before I played them. The only one I thought I could not hit a max win on was San Quentin! 

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

@joshnadinI wonder what my chances are of hitting a max win on pragmatic! Probably zero, I just wish I knew, before I played them. The only one I thought I could not hit a max win on was San Quentin! 

@joshmadin I bet 42K and got 29k back what is the RTP percentage for that because they are saying it is 94%

 

[mosmagic]

I am very sure that it doesn't affect your gameplay. A slot machine can't look at a previous result and use any information from it to determine what it is going to do next. Every spin is independent.

I don't think that is true. Every spin may be a independent spin but are based on a semi pre-determined outcome. That's where RTP comes in. RTP is a very loose term but dictates an outcome is governed by a set of perimeters IE: RTP = 96%. This doesn't mean it will pay exactly 96% all the time but that it will adjust the payout over time to pay close to that RTP figure. This RTP will adjust into positive and negative figures overall taking into account all input (deposits) and output (withdraws) to correct itself by the guidelines provided (RTP and other factors).

So the way I look at this a slot machine has to adjust to previous outcomes in order to know what the future outcome is don't you think? It has to know what exact figures have been to calculate what the next spins or 1000+ spins are to be. Positive or negative. Without a record of past spins how does it know what the next spin will be, a positive or negative to stay in accordance with RTP? How would it even know what RTP to give on any given spin unless it stayed at exactly the RTP every spin hence why past spins must affect the next spin.

Actually if you think about it the only random part is where gets paid or played nobody knows. That's the question mark?? Every dollar is the same to a slot machine or live game.

 

[Avidgambler]

@joshmadin I bet 42K and got 29k back what is the RTP percentage for that because they are saying it is 94%

I think there is a misconception here, that also explains some of your previous comments and questions on this thread. Your stated overall RTP on Videoslots (94 % in this case) isn't calculated from your overall deposits and withdrawals but rather from total amount returned (wins) divided by total amount gambled (spins x your bet) as @joshnadin already told you. We can actually have a good estimation of your playing volume from the numbers you have provided. So at the span of 7 years the total amount returned and gambled could be as high as 203 700 (returned wins) divided by 216 700 (total amount of gambled). This gives you roughly 94 % overall RTP and result of net loss of 13 000.  

Reality is the relation of deposits and withdrawals is for vast majority of players much lower than the average RTP of games they play. This is mainly due to the simple fact that if you keep playing a let's say 94 % RTP game long enough it will slowly but steadily drain you'r balance towards zero. Obviously luck and volatility also affect especially on shorter term. But in theory it is possible for a player at same time have 99 % RTP and still lose all of his/her deposits without any withdrawals. Now in reality it isn't quit that grim since players get lucky and/or withdrawal before they lose it all back. But you get the picture why the game RTP can be seemingly high while the relation of deposits and withdrawals is often much lower. This is also the major reason how casino industry is making money. If all of their customers would have as high deposit/withdrawal ratios as are the RTPs they woud go out of business very soon. Instead they are banking on people  who keep playing and playing and cycling that money until that ratio (on average) drastically drops. And it is not just that the ratio drops. Also because of the cycling the total amount of deposits usually grows which results on average bigger total amount of losses. 

 

[Avidgambler]

@mosmagic I get where you coming from, but I'm pretty sure you are looking the adjustment the wrong way. 

Now there might be some exceptions (certain jackpot slots and collect bonus games etc. come to mind) that use the information from previous rounds. But even then it shouldn't determinate what the game is going to do next. (it might affect the expected RTP short term though)

But for the vast majority of games the previous results have no impact whatsoever. Every spin is in fact independent. 

Lets says an example game is governed by the set of perimeters and mathematical model of sort that governs the win distribution, win frequency, bonus chance, volatility, maximum win etc,  When the game is designed and created the game provider already has a pretty good understanding  of the expected RTP of the game. At this point they will do extensive testing of millions and millions of spins (for very volatile slots this can be even higher). At this point some fine tuning and calibration might occur if needed. But when the game passes the tests and gives out wanted RTP it is good to go. So if the example game came trough testing after 200 million spins at 95 % return to the player, that is it. On some games it is even stated that the expected long term return to the player is xx % based on xxx million spins outcome distribution. 

So the game doesn't have to adjust anything positive or negative or know what happened previous spins. It only spins by the set of perimeters/ mathematical model and in the long run it will dish out very very close to the expected RTP. In short term games can pay out more than their stated RTP (and this has happened) or run "cold" and go under it. But when there is enough volume the average RTP will quite fast start to settle towards the stated RTP the game is suppose to pay. 

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

@Avidgamblerso it looks like my personal RTP has settled quite well for them then at 94% considering I am a UK player that seems about right! How do we know that personal RTP isn’t taken into account when playing if game RTP adjusts accordingly? The fact that they can adjust my RTP on free spins is just ridiculous because there is no lose spins at all..!

 

[mosmagic]

So the game doesn't have to adjust anything positive or negative or know what happened previous spins. It only spins by the set of perimeters/ mathematical model and in the long run it will dish out very very close to the expected RTP. In short term games can pay out more than their stated RTP (and this has happened) or run "cold" and go under it. But when there is enough volume the average RTP will quite fast start to settle towards the stated RTP the game is suppose to pay. 

Your pretty much stating what I said in so many words. It's a theoretical RTP which adjusts to cover loses or payout by the game itself and even out over the long run.

Lets says an example game is governed by the set of perimeters and mathematical model of sort that governs the win distribution, win frequency, bonus chance, volatility, maximum win etc,

And how do you think it knows this data? How do you think it distributes this data. 

The mathematical model you say is just that. Adjusting to the "mathematical model" and adjusting the  "perimeters" to accommodate the RTP working forward and backwards if you understand what I'm saying. It's not a rigid thing or straight line. I understand what your saying. Maybe took me too literally.

example: R?sh wins 3.5mil from a brand new slot 5 minutes old. So this slot has a negative of almost 3.5mil. By your logic the slot doesn't register the win as it forgets that win and randomly gives another spin and so on and so on. By my logic it has to adjust (slightly) to recoup that initial loss to stay within RTP range. So therefore it must remember this loss to know what the exact range is to aim for over a period of time. This is probably where the provider steps in as well.

Not to mention how many times a slot is revised and "adjusted" rtp's and errors ironed out. This data is all collected and correlated then "adjusted" again and again. 

The politics of who pays what and when is another thing between casinos and providers etc

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

@Avidgamblerso it looks like my personal RTP has settled quite well for them then at 94% considering I am a UK player that seems about right! How do we know that personal RTP isn’t taken into account when playing if game RTP adjusts accordingly? The fact that they can adjust my RTP on free spins is just ridiculous because there is no lose spins at all..!

@Avidgambleracually it makes perfect sense for them to give out free spins to bump up players RTP on a really low bet size its a win win for them. Does anyone know what tools @videoslots uses to monitor players RTP? 

 

[joshnadin]

@joshmadin I bet 42K and got 29k back what is the RTP percentage for that because they are saying it is 94%

Those are your deposits and withdrawals, that is not used to calculate your RTP percentages.
You have 'won' far more than £29K, but you have used a lot of the money credited back to your account to continue playing.

You've also got to remember that a slot machines stated RTP is based of millions upon millions of spins, for every single player over the games lifetime.
--

I don't think that is true. Every spin may be a independent spin but are based on a semi pre-determined outcome. That's where RTP comes in. RTP is a very loose term but dictates an outcome is governed by a set of perimeters IE: RTP = 96%. This doesn't mean it will pay exactly 96% all the time but that it will adjust the payout over time to pay close to that RTP figure. This RTP will adjust into positive and negative figures overall taking into account all input (deposits) and output (withdraws) to correct itself by the guidelines provided (RTP and other factors).

So the way I look at this a slot machine has to adjust to previous outcomes in order to know what the future outcome is don't you think? It has to know what exact figures have been to calculate what the next spins or 1000+ spins are to be. Positive or negative. Without a record of past spins how does it know what the next spin will be, a positive or negative to stay in accordance with RTP? How would it even know what RTP to give on any given spin unless it stayed at exactly the RTP every spin hence why past spins must affect the next spin.

Actually if you think about it the only random part is where gets paid or played nobody knows. That's the question mark?? Every dollar is the same to a slot machine or live game.

It doesn't matter in the long term, as long as the coding and the maths is correct when it comes to probability, the game will always operate extremely close to the expected RTP without having to 'know' the previous results.

Just like when you play Blackjack, the cards don't 'know' the previous outcome, but over the long term, the games always, always operates within the stated RTP after a long enough sample size. It just all comes down to simple maths.

 

[FreeWheelerBaby]

Your pretty much stating what I said in so many words. It's a theoretical RTP which adjusts to cover loses or payout by the game itself and even out over the long run.

And how do you think it knows this data? How do you think it distributes this data. 

The mathematical model you say is just that. Adjusting to the "mathematical model" and adjusting the  "perimeters" to accommodate the RTP working forward and backwards if you understand what I'm saying. It's not a rigid thing or straight line. I understand what your saying. Maybe took me too literally.

example: R?sh wins 3.5mil from a brand new slot 5 minutes old. So this slot has a negative of almost 3.5mil. By your logic the slot doesn't register the win as it forgets that win and randomly gives another spin and so on and so on. By my logic it has to adjust (slightly) to recoup that initial loss to stay within RTP range. So therefore it must remember this loss to know what the exact range is to aim for over a period of time. This is probably where the provider steps in as well.

Not to mention how many times a slot is revised and "adjusted" rtp's and errors ironed out. This data is all collected and correlated then "adjusted" again and again. 

The politics of who pays what and when is another thing between casinos and providers etc

@mosmagic how low can they adjust the RTP to? Thats crazy they do that because according to what everyone on here is saying it adjusts back to the RTP anyway can they only do that by tampering with the RTP?