24 Casino. Beware of the T&C's - A warning to all.

Hey mate @FireindadiscoI'm sorry for the late reply, I wanted to give the casino a chance to reply first.

I understand the terms are frustrating and I've been talking to 24 to see if we can better them somehow. The reason why I wanted to try them out and stream as that I know the people behind the casino and they're gamblers themselves, hence they wanted to give a lot of bonuses out so people can play more. Many bonuses however has to come with a bit stricter terms as they're very good EV for the players. My understanding has been that the more you've played, the better the terms get but in the end of the day I want everyone to be happy so I'll try and work something out.

Just out of curiosity, what terms would you think would feel alright if you got frequent bonuses? @Fireindadisco

All the best,
Kim

 
spiker1977 said:
A  deposit bonus with a withdraw cap is always a NO, and with a 45x wager its a double NO NO. 

If i take a bonus i try to win big and i use volatile games where you can have a huge hit. IF!! you get a huge hit(ones in a blue moon) don't want to be this person:





The Telegram promotions.. its free spins/money so the win cap is needed. 

I got a suggestion what to buy the telegram promotion personal as a Christmas gift.

Buy them  a watch.  10 min Countdown timer .. should be about 10 min not between 5-75 min 😁
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Hej no its not this bonus it was another  bonus 200% i depo 120€ and i win big win on starlight1000 maybe 950€ and yeah i go from 950€ to 4500€ and when i withdrawal  my withdrawal  was canceled  and the support  tell you will get only 600€ its never happened  with its was first time 

 
@LetsGiveItASpin  Kim, thanks for responding.  With all due respect, I don't know how somebody could suggest that Depo bonuses with 45xwagering plus 5x cap at withdrawal are +EV, unless EV stands for Entertainment Value in Comedy try on's rather than Expected Value.  Its anything but a viable proposition, its outrageous.  To beat 45X wagering is a job in itself, on max bets of €5, without going through that and be hit with a double whammy of losing all bar 5X the depo bonus on withdrawal.  I'm not one for self torture, I know I'd max em all that day, with my recent luck :)  

As a fellow gambler, I have an inkling that you agree that with me.

I won't pretend to know how to run casinos.  I do know that trustworthiness & transparency are the key traits for me signing up to any, especially with Curacao ops.   I am aware that its also not a viable option to offer 100% bonuses to punters on a daily basis, so my suggestion to 24 is stop pretending you can.  Most offer it on the occasional basis and perhaps at 50% with no cap.  Anyway, I wont add anymore to the saga.  Thanks for reading.

 
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Ashor said:
Hej no its not this bonus it was another  bonus 200% i depo 120€ and i win big win on starlight1000 maybe 950€ and yeah i go from 950€ to 4500€ and when i withdrawal  my withdrawal  was canceled  and the support  tell you will get only 600€ its never happened  with its was first time 
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Hej no its not this bonus it was another  bonus 200%

I know that its not this casino that you had you issue with, I took your situation to show how bad the 5x cap is.

i depo 120€ and i win big win on starlight1000 maybe 950€ and yeah i go from 950€ to 4500€

You had a nice run of luck and beat the wager. But the casino use "unethical/-EV" tactics to protect them self. 

its was first time 

You live and you learn. Just remember to read the T&C every time. If there is something you don't understand there is lot of gambling forums where ppl will help you if you ask, (casinoground, casinomeister....)

 
Fireindadisco said:
@LetsGiveItASpin  Kim, thanks for responding.  With all due respect, I don't know how somebody could suggest that Depo bonuses with 45xwagering plus 5x cap at withdrawal are +EV, unless EV stands for Entertainment Value in Comedy try on's rather than Expected Value.  Its anything but a viable proposition, its outrageous.  To beat 45X wagering is a job in itself, on max bets of €5, without going through that and be hit with a double whammy of losing all bar 5X the depo bonus on withdrawal.  I'm not one for self torture, I know I'd max em all that day, with my recent luck :)  

As a fellow gambler, I have an inkling that you agree that with me.

I won't pretend to know how to run casinos.  I do know that trustworthiness & transparency are the key traits for me signing up to any, especially with Curacao ops.   I am aware that its also not a viable option to offer 100% bonuses to punters on a daily basis, so my suggestion to 24 is stop pretending you can.  Most offer it on the occasional basis and perhaps at 50% with no cap.  Anyway, I wont add anymore to the saga.  Thanks for reading.
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That's the point, if you give bonuses all the time you'd have to cap it, with that said I don't know what the cap should be to give some value but not be super abuseable. I'm with you mate, hopefully we can work something out.

 
Final one from me @Fireindadisco – You're focusing on certain bonuses that are completely optional and not imposed on the player. As I showed you in the poll privately (and I am attaching it here), our players prefer to have many more regular bonuses and accept the strict restrictions. The trade-off is that they receive frequent bonuses. Not every player thinks the way you do, and you need to adapt to your player base. You are cherry-picking points to conveniently suit your narrative that these bonuses are predatory, while completely disregarding the fact that if players don’t take them, we are still providing huge value to our players in the form of cashbacks, rakebacks, and other bonuses without the restrictions above. I find it interesting how you are able to comment on our bonus structure without fully trying our product. You also need accept that the world of players goes way beyond the streaming one, to which we constantly need to adapt too. All the best,. View attachment 43899

 
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jankkee said:
I wagerd a 200% bonus (100€ + 200 bonus) there and after wagering I had ~1200€ balance. I cashed 1000€ and left 200€ to play with, cashout processed kinda quick. Would have been interresting to try to cashout the rest, since it did not dissapear after wagering / was left on my account after cashout even though it says this max 5x cap.. In some casinos with caps I have experience of that then remaining money after wagering is cut off from the balance..

P.S. I think I actually cashed 1000.xx something so I indeed exceeded the Max cap cashout 🤔😆

Myabe there are special terms from Cg/lgias players? @Skylined87 @LetsGiveItASpin
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Quite simple , you received this because it's not part of the promotions above and the max cash out doesn't apply, but this doesn't suit the narrative and cherry picked argument above @Fireindadisco

 
24Casino Community Manager said:
Final one from me @Fireindadisco – You're focusing on certain bonuses that are completely optional and not imposed on the player. As I showed you in the poll privately (and I am attaching it here), our players prefer to have many more regular bonuses and accept the strict restrictions. The trade-off is that they receive frequent bonuses. Not every player thinks the way you do, and you need to adapt to your player base. You are cherry-picking points to conveniently suit your narrative that these bonuses are predatory, while completely disregarding the fact that if players don’t take them, we are still providing huge value to our players in the form of cashbacks, rakebacks, and other bonuses without the restrictions above. I find it interesting how you are able to comment on our bonus structure without fully trying our product. You also need accept that the world of players goes way beyond the streaming one, to which we constantly need to adapt too. All the best,.
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Just when I thought I was out of this thread, I am pulled back in. 

Wow!  "Cherry picking to suit a narrative".  How dare you suggest that. I am not going to mince my words, so let me be very clear.

I am not focusing on certain bonuses.   I am focusing on the ones on your website with big banners to entice people in .  All of them.  I am also focusing on the emails I received after signing up.  All of them.  They all had the same unfair 5X CAP after 45X wagering with max bet of €5.  This is your standard mantra in your terms & conditions as pointed out in previous posts. I can assure you that I am not cherry picking.  The thread was started to make the community aware and not get caught by the bonus terms behind the banners (like some in the trustadvisor reviews). 

"I find it interesting" that you clearly haven't read my previous posts if you make incorrect statements about me trying your product.   I have signed up and deposited and on @LetsGiveItASpin - Casino Streamer recommendation.  I've seen enough.  You certainly haven't enamored me with your latest response to change my mind.

Quoting me a Telegram straw poll as some kind of guise to do what you want is simply laughable.  The reality is that in real world research most players don't understand wagering terms until it is too late.  It's why some countries have already removed the bonuses option, whilst others are gearing up to do so.  

It is you that "needs to accept" that there are people out there who will call you out on what they perceive as untrustworthy and unacceptable practices.  Would you get away with these terms in any other licensed market other than Curacao ? 

It takes the word of an established and trusted streamer to entice people into this murky world of poor transparency.  24casino is just a brand name operating under a DAMA JaZ licence from Curacao and run by a marketing agency in Hive Affiliates

"Hive Affiliates is managed by industry veterans with a focus on trust and transparency".  So transparent that there is no details of who these industry veterans are, or where they are ?

Finally,  had you not been so rude I would not finish this post up by pointing out that Malta is in your restricted territories list of where people can sign up and play with real money. 

Slán

 
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poll.JPG

What i read from this "misleading poll" is that 45% of your telegram voters have done 0-4 deposits and are not eligible for non restricted bonuses. 

The majority 55% of the voter that have done the Req of 5 deposit or more. Don't want a hard cap on the bonuses. 

When you are accusing @Fireindadisco for cherry picking... Check your self in the mirror before you open your mouth. 

I think as gambling community it's great that @Fireindadisco did try to give ppl a heads up on a bonus issue. So new gamblers don't make unneedy mistakes when trying out new casinos. 

My personal advice is when you take a bonus is READ the T&C thoroughly. And check what games are restricted under bonus play, i have lost my money few times on this mistake. Here are 24casinos restricted games 

The following games are excluded from Bonus wagering: Scarab Treasure, Aztec Emerald, Fruit Loop, Princess of Pearls, Wild Hearts (Amatic), Rocket Dice, Blackjack Surrender, Plinko, Zorro Wild Heart (BGaming), Surfin' Reels, Wombaroo (Booming), Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde, Fruitbat Crazy, Max Quest: Wrath of Ra, Lava Gold, Pinocchio, Spinfinity Man, Split Way Royal, Sugar Pop, Sugar Pop 2: Double Dipped, Super 7 Blackjack, Take The Bank, Take The Kingdom, Take Olympus, Take Santa's Shop, Tens or Better, The Hive!, The Mystic Hive, Three Card Rummy, Triple Edge Poker, Vip European Roulette, WhoSpunIt Plus, Zoom Roulette (Betsoft), Ninja (Endorphina), 1429 Uncharted Seas, Hope Diamond (Epic Media), Fluffy Rangers, Rocket Stars (Evoplay), Deep Blue Jackbomb, Lines of Magic (Felix Gaming), Egyptian Dreams Deluxe, Candy Tower, Fly!, Jellyfish Flow, Knockout Football, Knockout Football Rush, London Hunter, Magic Oak, Marvelous Furlongs, Presto!, Pumpkin Patch, Santa’s Village (Habanero), Ambiance, Mega Boy, Roo Riches, Super Fast Hot Hot Respin, Tree of Fortune, Vegas High Roller (iSoftbet), Bangkok Dreams, Crystal Cavern, Dino Odyssey (Kalamba), Bastet and Cats (Mascot), Blood Suckers, Blood Suckers II, Dead or Alive, Dead or Alive 2, Dead or Alive 2 Feature Buy, Devil's Delight, Lucky Angler, Reel Rush 2, Reel Steal, Robin Hood: Shifting Riches, Scudamore's Super Stakes, Serengeti Kings, Single Deck Blackjack Professional Series, Street Fighter II: The World Warrior Slot, Rome: The Golden Age, The French Roulette, The Wish Master, TXS Hold'em Professional Series, Wilderland (NetEnt), Book Of Shadows (Nolimit City), Wild Cherry Blast, Wins Ahoy (Nucleus), 300 Shields, Jackpot Jester 200000, 1429 Uncharted Seas, Lil Devil, Royal Mint (NYX), Myths of Bastet (OnlyPlay), Baker's Treat, Eye of the Kraken, Golden Legend, Happy Halloween, Hugo 2, Mahjong 88, MULTIFRUIT 81, Pearls of India, Pimped, Rage to Riches, Royal Masquerade, Sea Hunter, Tower Quest (Play'nGo), Solar Temple, Solar Queen, Solar King (Playson), Age of the Gods: Ruler of the Seas, Shields of Rome, Storms of Ice Power Play Jackpot, Wild Lava Savage Jungle, Viking Runecraft (Playtech), 3 Kingdoms – Battle of Red Cliffs, Bronco Spirit, Cash Elevator, Dragon Kingdom - Eyes of Fire, Golden Beauty, Jungle Gorilla, The Champions, Wild Depth, Queen of Gold, Jade Butterfly, Snakes and Ladders Megadice (Pragmatic), Bison Battle, Jammin' Jars 2, Wild Swarm, Wizard Shop (Push Gaming), 3 Tiny Gods, 300 Shields, Africa X UP, African Quest, Agent Valkyrie, Astro Legends: Lyra and Erion, Art of the Heist, Beautiful Bones, Bikini Party, Book of Oz, Bookie of Odds, Bookie of Odds, Break Da Bank Again Respin, Castle Builder, Castle Builder II, Cool Buck, Craps, Dragon Dance, Elite of Evil: Portal of Gold, Flower Fortunes, Forsaken Kingdom, Gems Odyssey, Gems Odyssey 92, Gods Of Power, Goldaur Guardians, Golden Stallion, Hot Ink, Le Kaffee Bar, Lil Devil, Lucky Clucks, Magic of Sahara, Medusa, Monster Blast, Peek-a-Boo - 5 Reel, Pets Go Wild, Rabbit in the Hat, Reel Gems, Retro Reels, Retro Reels Diamond Glitz, Retro Reels Extreme Heat, Santa Goes Wild, Scrooge, Sisters of Oz WOWPOT, Solar Queen, Spectacular Wheel of Wealth, Stardust, Tomb Raider - Secret of the Sword, Tomb Raider, Untamed Bengal Tiger, Untamed Crowned Eagle, Untamed Giant Panda, Untamed Wolf Pack, Vampire: The Masquerade - Las Vegas, Village People Macho Moves, Wheel of Wealth Special Edition, Wheel of Wealth, Wild Orient, Zombie Hoard (Quickfire), Skulls Up! (Quickspin), 5 Families, Ancients Blessing, Aztec Spins, Bombuster, Diamond Blitz, Dynamite Riches, Lucky Fridays, Spin Town, Three Musketeers, Reel Heist, Well Of Wishes (Red Tiger), 3 Secret Cities, 100 Bit Dice, Book of 99, Deep Descent, Frequent Flyer, Hellcatraz, Kingmaker, Lil Devil, Marching Legions, Royal Mint, Slot Vegas Megaquads, Trail Blazer, Wizard Shop (Relax), 1 Reel Egypt, 1 Reel Fruits, 1 Reel Halloween, 1 Reel Monkey, 1 Reel Xmas, Cupids Strike 2, Divine Forest, Lemur Does Vegas, Summer Splash, Mines of Gold, BlackJack (Spinomenal), Solar King, Solar Temple (Slotegrator), Egypt King (Swintt), 1429 Uncharted Seas (Thunderkick), Crypts of Fortune, Mining Factory, Victoria Wild (TrueLab), Alchymedes, Ancient Eclipse, Cauldron, Cazino Cosmos, Dark Vortex, Dwarf Mine, Double Dragons, Football Glory, Hammer of Gods, Holmes and the Stolen Stones, Jackpot Raiders, Johnan Legendarian, Jokerizer, Legion Hot 1, Ozwin’s Jackpots, Robin Sherwood Marauders, Spina Colada, The Hot Offer, The Dark Joker Rizes, The Royal Family, Towering Pays Valhalla, Tut's Twister, Vikings go to Hell, Vikings go Berzerk, Victoria Wild, Wicked Circus, Wolf Hunters (Yggdrasil), 9 Lions, Black Horse, Black Horse Deluxe, Butterfly Lovers, Hot 777, Hot 777 Deluxe, Larry The Leprechaun, Reel Hero, Relic Hunters and the Book of Faith, Sonic Reels (Wazdan), and all Jackpot slots.

 
24Casino Community Manager said:
Hi Badger,

You mentioned that you receive daily deposit offers and free bonuses via Telegram. However, there is a restriction when these bonuses are given so frequently. That said, there are still many bonuses without such restrictions.

As a final point, aside from cashback and rakeback, nothing stops you from playing with real money. So, your argument here seems to be that you want fairer bonuses with uncapped winnings, correct?
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I`ve never asked about getting these offers so frequent, they just flood my email almost on a daily basis. But they all are the same. Bonus terms are a joke. The bonuses you talk about (the better ones) has never reached my account. And I`ve made multiple deposits and bonus offers always have the same shitty terms. Rewarding players that play more and more you say, but nothing has changed for me. So I simply don`t believe what you say.

Sure, always possible to play without any bonus. But the key here is that I got 24casino recommended from Kim and Hampus. With promises of a great casino with amazing bonuses and fast payouts. Never seen any of it. Only the opposite. Every other casino I play at has better terms than 24! Maybe withdrawals are fast, but it`s almost impossible to get one if you use a bonus. As far as i know - not even Kim has managed to get a withdrawal from 24casino on stream. Unlucky maybe? Or too high wager? I don`t know the answer.

And I must add that your rude responses to @Fireindadisco is the most unprofessional behaviour I`ve ever seen from a casino representative on this forum.

 
Absolutely spot on @Badger and @Fireindadisco here on regards the bonuses offered. Also i want to mention and agree that a lot of the players don't read and care about the bonus T&C they just want the bonus to gamble. In rare occasions you will see complains regards this just because the majority of them cannot complet the wager, i was one of them in the past that took bonuses without reading the T&C's , even recently like 2 months ago i took a 200% bonus on 24 knowing the T&C. Often is because you want to have a bash and disregard everything else.I had a decent run the got the balance up to 5.5k with 18k left to wager, was spinning 5€ a spin on Tombstone and got a bonus with the tease for the super, in that moment i hoped that it won't hit just because i knew how good the bonus could have been. I had that bonus twice and both times it paid over 3kx. It's not a guarantee but also it could have happened.The moment it didn't hit i realized that i was rooting not to win just because i agreed to some awful T&C. That's why some are so vocal in this thread, because there's players who got lucky in the past and couldn't withdrawal most of the money they won and nearly got lucky like me who realized that there's no enjoyment playing under this kinda terms.

 
just will add to there to compare to casino i was playing till i quited gambling with money . i was playing et casino that give out 100-250% or spins deposit bonus with 0x wager but the bonus you get you cannot withdraw and will be forfeited after withdrawing the amount that is the real balance of course those  bonuses are caped 5x the big one bonuses but the small have no cap or free spins also without cap or without wager requirement . this is what i liked on the casino i was playing cannot name the casino probably there us casinogrounds do not have them in list also becous it is not topic about the casino . Just want to say that 24 casino bonuses TaC are joke against the one i was playing in 

 
Fireindadisco said:
Just when I thought I was out of this thread, I am pulled back in. 

Wow!  "Cherry picking to suit a narrative".  How dare you suggest that. I am not going to mince my words, so let me be very clear.

I am not focusing on certain bonuses.   I am focusing on the ones on your website with big banners to entice people in .  All of them.  I am also focusing on the emails I received after signing up.  All of them.  They all had the same unfair 5X CAP after 45X wagering with max bet of €5.  This is your standard mantra in your terms & conditions as pointed out in previous posts. I can assure you that I am not cherry picking.  The thread was started to make the community aware and not get caught by the bonus terms behind the banners (like some in the trustadvisor reviews). 

"I find it interesting" that you clearly haven't read my previous posts if you make incorrect statements about me trying your product.   I have signed up and deposited and on @LetsGiveItASpin - Casino Streamer recommendation.  I've seen enough.  You certainly haven't enamored me with your latest response to change my mind.

Quoting me a Telegram straw poll as some kind of guise to do what you want is simply laughable.  The reality is that in real world research most players don't understand wagering terms until it is too late.  It's why some countries have already removed the bonuses option, whilst others are gearing up to do so.  

It is you that "needs to accept" that there are people out there who will call you out on what they perceive as untrustworthy and unacceptable practices.  Would you get away with these terms in any other licensed market other than Curacao ? 

It takes the word of an established and trusted streamer to entice people into this murky world of poor transparency.  24casino is just a brand name operating under a DAMA JaZ licence from Curacao and run by a marketing agency in Hive Affiliates

"Hive Affiliates is managed by industry veterans with a focus on trust and transparency".  So transparent that there is no details of who these industry veterans are, or where they are ?

Finally,  had you not been so rude I would not finish this post up by pointing out that Malta is in your restricted territories list of where people can sign up and play with real money. 

Slán
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I can only agree with your words and find the choice of words by those responsible at 24Casino on Casinogrounds simply rude and unprofessional. Most people have been watching Kim's streams for several years and rely on products offered on Casinogrounds. The fact that a site has been praised for months that offers incredibly bad bonuses for players, which has been distanced from in the past, is questionable to the maximum. Even if you know the people behind 24 Casino, it makes no sense to destroy the credibility that has been built up over a decade. It is now January, Kim already wrote at the end of November that something should be done and the same bonuses are still being offered. It would be nice if they really took action, I can't imagine that it's in Kim's interest to present a Curacao Casino with questionable bonuses to his longtime followers.

 
Yesterday i was watching @LetsGiveItASpin stream. There was someone who had taken a bonus and got surprised when the win cap hit after wager was done.

Now a days the slots are so volatile that 5kx 10kx or 15kx (or more) hits happens, so if you deposit 50€ and you hit a massive bonus and have the 5x win cap on your money! You be kicking your self for a long time. 

What a gaming community can do is educate and give the information to new players that they don't make the same mistake.

So i made this information/education video what 2x/5x really mean after you hit the wagering and the win cap hits. Seeing is believing or just don't take any deposit bonuses with a win cap. 

 So i got a 10€ free that had a 2x win cap and 50x (500€) wagering, when the wagering was almost done i put record on :




I did not loose anything, i just put the video up if it give someone clarity what a win cap is. Just remember to read the T&C.

 
Absolutely weirded out reading the reply from the @24Casino Community Manager to @Fireindadisco...

Damaging instead of damage control, in my book: the terms are laughable to any serious punter. Aside from all the 'Responsible gaming' and 'Entertainment' QoL declining, the one thing all gamblers have in common is, that they want to win big. Although that is subjective, 5x your deposit is not gonna scratch that itch for most players. Especially given the modern trend of extremely HV slots (which not only the Casinos push, but also are preferred by most streamers), lots of viewers signing up will play those slots. Any one of them hitting anything decent on any of those slots will of course then be very dissapointed by said win cap, provided they were aware of it. And yes, of course the players have a responsibility to read the terms, but let's face it, we know how that usually goes. Same with all the fine print in the world. Especially if it's often hidden, at least those little details.

The guy a few posts above who posted the list of excluded games, is highlighting that fact. Not only is 40x steep, it's not worth it for 5x depo, and almost undoable if you look at said list. I haven't dug into the TC's further, because im not really interested in joining, especially after reading this thread, but it's not rocket science. Question would be, will they forfeit your measly 5x, if you managed the wr, but accidentally played one of the games in the list? I could imagine...

If you insist on a win cap, at least make it a 10 to 15x deposit, or even 10 to 15x deposit+bonus..

If you want to entice players to play more, but protect yourself from bonus abuse or AP adnwhatnot, just figure out some sort of loyalty scheme that actively rewards players that have deposited, maybe with some sort of tier? Like one deposit that week (maybe w/o bonus) gives you 50% off of the regular wr, and/or 100% increase in win cap, two depo's 60% of regular wr, and 125% increase of max win cap? Just throwing numbers out there, more as example. It's about the idea in this case.

I personally use bonuses frequently, and a lot of my casinos here in the Netherlands, have quite low rewards, like 25 FS worth 5 bux, ona 50 depo, and a 2x wr of bonus winnings, which usually amounts to nothing, but at least theres no win cap, if something miraculous happened with the spins. Usually the only restriction on any of the match or FS offers, is a max bet cap. Which of course is understandable, 

I stem from the old guard, who come to the conclusion that usually, bonuses aren't worth the hassle, but luckily there are still a few good ones around. I think 24Casino could do some more research on player-friendly bonus-structures, and then get back to the drawing board? And perhaps a little course on public relations wouldn't be amiss here either :D  

 
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Sadly this was never addressed or responded to.

The worst case scenario for example is a person who deposited using a "bonus drop" which is where the casino normally drop free spins on Telegram to the first x number who claim them, except this wasn't free spins, it was a code for a 200% deposit bonus. The customer deposited and ran it up to 7k from a 100 having hit what was warned about, a max win (his first ever - how depressing) .  He went through and completed the 40x wagering.  Guess what 24 did ?  They imposed a 2x of his depo on withdrawal (using the bonus drop condition) and forfeited the rest.  Yep, scandalous.

Sadly the "arbitrator" didn't step in here and many might say that this is the problem where you have arbitration by those who are also carrying out affiliation.  How this wasn't seen as anything other than outrageous is beyond comprehension. 

Anyhow, it is highly likely we wont see any further promotion of 24 as LGIAS can only operate on Youtube with casinos approved by google. 

Kim/H, you are great guys but please do not promote this type of horse manure again.

Much love

 
Had a similar issue with unclear bonus terms before, and support didn’t help much. Now I always check the bonus rules twice before playing to avoid messing things up.

 
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