Leoventures owning 51% of Casinogrounds forum and streaming platform

[Kazommm]

Hi!

I've been watching Letsgiveitaspin for a couple of years, I guess since he started.

Lately I've stopped, because in my view Kim and the other streamers in the Casinogrounds network is involved in shady business.

" LeoVegas agreed to pay an initial SEK30m (£2.7m) in December 2017 but has now completed the deal. The agreement includes a potential maximum earn-out payment of SEK15m (£1.3m). The extra payment is based on revenue performance during the period from January 2018 to June 2018. LeoVegas, following its own assessment, expects the full earn-out payment will be made."

So not only is Casinogrounds and their streamers bought by Leovegas for a hefty sum, they also are employed given that a bonus will payed out if a goal is met. What is the basis for this revenue performance, gamblers signing up through affiliate links? I would like to know.

All this would be peachy fine, if only they would put a banner on the streams something like "sponsored and owned by Leovegas", and also doing the same on casinogrounds.com. The streamers portray themselves as independent streamers, without any professional links to Leovegas. The bonuses, they say, are given to them because they are streamers and regular depositers. This may be true, but please disclose the truth.

The streams are nothing else but hidden advertising for Leovegas and it's sister sites, to get customers.

Till this is resolved, I will refrain from watching streams, and hope others will follow.

 

Source: http://www.casinoreviews.co.uk/news/casino/leovegas-completes-deal-51-casinogrounds.html

 

 

[Slotplayer]

I am a CG streamer and are independent. I stream from reputable casinos of my choice and that excludes Leo Vegas. They are an excellent casino but lack on customer loyalty hence that I don't play there all that often.

All streams irrespective from what casino showcase that casino. That applies to non CG streamers too, so I guess you will not be watching them too?

[Kazommm]

1 minute ago, Slotplayer said:

I am a CG streamer and are independent. I stream from reputable casinos of my choice and that excludes Leo Vegas. They are an excellent casino but lack on customer loyalty hence that I don't play there all that often.

All streams irrespective from what casino showcase that casino. That applies to non CG streamers too, so I guess you will not be watching them too?

I do not doubt your independency from Leovegas, being a mere streamer in the CG-community. I'm also aware that Kim and the others are streaming from other casinos, as well.
My issue is the lack of transparency, and honesty, from CG and LV. LV bought CG for over 30 million SEK, and you see no ethical issues with not being open about that to customers and viewers?
I can't see why you're comparing a million dollar business as CG to independent streamers with affiliate links.

[Huggehugg]

Hi @Kazommm ! I do not quite understand what you mean with lack of transparency and honesty, Kim has talked about this several times in his stream. This was even discussed several times on this forum. I can also say that I am not doing any "hidden marketing" for LeoVegas, I only promote the casinos I personally play on. I like to be as transparent as I possibly can on stream when discussing how affiliation works, which people appreciate. You are of course entitled to your very own opinion, but is it really called for to blatantly accuse CasinoGrounds for being controlled with an iron fist by LeoVentures (LeoVegas)? Just seems a bit rude to try to make people stop watching streamers just because you think they should.

The acquisition will help CasinoGrounds build a better plattform for the community, which would be very difficult without help. There will be changes in the future to improve the site, and we hope that the community will enjoy them

[Kazommm]

1 minute ago, Huggehugg said:

Hi @Kazommm ! I do not quite understand what you mean with lack of transparency and honesty, Kim has talked about this several times in his stream. This was even discussed several times on this forum. I can also say that I am not doing any "hidden marketing" for LeoVegas, I only promote the casinos I personally play on. I like to be as transparent as I possibly can on stream when discussing how affiliation works, which people appreciate. You are of course entitled to your very own opinion, but is it really called for to blatantly accuse CasinoGrounds for being controlled with an iron fist by LeoVentures (LeoVegas)? Just seems a bit rude to try to make people stop watching streamers just because you think they should.

The acquisition will help CasinoGrounds build a better plattform for the community, which would be very difficult without help. There will be changes in the future to improve the site, and we hope that the community will enjoy them

Hi Huggehugg

I appreciate your answer.

I do not doubt this topic has been discussed by you or other streamers during stream. What I am asking is merely a disclaimer telling viewers and customers CG is owned in majority by a gambling company. Only relying on people being in stream when this is mentioned is in my opinion not enough.
 

Using hyperbols like "iron fist" is uneccesary, as my request isn't for these streamers to be shut down, and it is not rude to urge people to take action.

I understand money is needed for the community to grow and the site to develop into something bigger, but I must say a theoretical 45 million SEK is an enormous amount for such a task

[Skylined87]

Hey @Kazommm!

I understand your position, however let me clarify things a bit further - @Andreas wrote this reply a bit ago here in the forums:

Hey guys,

Yes it's true that CG has taken on a partner in LeoVentures which is the investment arm of LeoVegas. That we've done this has many reasons - the main one being that we want CG and casino streaming to be here in the long run, and to secure that one needs both resources and manpower - which this partner possesses. They also have a completely similar view to ours in how they think casino streaming should be done, which was a major consideration when we started talking to potential partners early in the year.

All CG streamers always have and always will be playing with their own funds. The streams/streamers and CG are two separate entities and this partnership does not affect the former directly. In the long run it's our goal to have CG and its platform to support streamers more than it is today, grow the community and bring more value to its members - something we felt we possibly can't do on our own (or at the very least take a long long time) - and that is the main motivation to why this partnership was formed.

I hope this clarifies a bit 

[Kazommm]

38 minutes ago, Skylined87 said:

Hey @Kazommm!

I understand your position, however let me clarify things a bit further - @Andreas wrote this reply a bit ago here in the forums:

Hey guys,

Yes it's true that CG has taken on a partner in LeoVentures which is the investment arm of LeoVegas. That we've done this has many reasons - the main one being that we want CG and casino streaming to be here in the long run, and to secure that one needs both resources and manpower - which this partner possesses. They also have a completely similar view to ours in how they think casino streaming should be done, which was a major consideration when we started talking to potential partners early in the year.

All CG streamers always have and always will be playing with their own funds. The streams/streamers and CG are two separate entities and this partnership does not affect the former directly. In the long run it's our goal to have CG and its platform to support streamers more than it is today, grow the community and bring more value to its members - something we felt we possibly can't do on our own (or at the very least take a long long time) - and that is the main motivation to why this partnership was formed.

I hope this clarifies a bit 

Hi Skylined!

I appreciate your answer.

All this is perfectly fine, and I have no issue with the business model at all. And I've never doubted the deposits being real cash, that's also the reason I've watched CG-streamers.

Still, there is a flaw in Andreas' statement. When you sell 51% of your company to one shareholder, making the buyer the major shareholder, you are not making partners with the buyer, you are effectively giving away control over your company for profit. And again, I have no problem with this. All I am asking for is a disclaimer letting people know they are watching, or reading content provided by a company owned in major by a gambling company. I don't feel that is too much to ask for.

 

[Slotplayer]

1 hour ago, Kazommm said:

I do not doubt your independency from Leovegas, being a mere streamer in the CG-community. I'm also aware that Kim and the others are streaming from other casinos, as well.
My issue is the lack of transparency, and honesty, from CG and LV. LV bought CG for over 30 million SEK, and you see no ethical issues with not being open about that to customers and viewers?
I can't see why you're comparing a million dollar business as CG to independent streamers with affiliate links.

It was you that said that CG and their streamers were bought by Leo Vegas. My reply was saying that is not the case. I am one of their streamers and have not been bought by Leo Vegas nor do they control what casino I stream from.

[Kazommm]

1 minute ago, Slotplayer said:

It was you that said that CG and their streamers were bought by Leo Vegas. My reply was saying that is not the case. I am one of their streamers and have not been bought by Leo Vegas nor do they control what casino I stream from.

I get the fact that you are and independent streamer, and that is something I value. Still, this doesn't shy away from the facts that the company you are marketing, being a streamer for them (CG) are owned in major by a betting company.

My only issue is the lack of disclaimers, and that is all.

[Ki4Life]

Hey @Kazommm appreciate you addressing your concern. Been trying to get to the core of your complaint here. Just help me out here and correct me if I did not follow you right. 

Quick Summary of your statements:

1. Leoventures has 51% ownership of CG with the deal
2. Deal included a bonus if requirements are met somewhere in 2018
3. CG is no longer independent and has become a part of Leoventures
4. All visitors of CG should be warned Leoventures owns 51% the site
5. All streamers, while independent, should have banners explaining CG is owned by Leovegas regardless if they play on LeoVegas themselfs

Ad 1. While on paper Leoventures (mind you Leovegas is the casino and Leoventures is an investment company) does have the majority vote I dont think the platform CG has changed its course since the deal. It is still a platform from and for the slotplayers. Long term Leoventures does have a say on where the site is going and prob part of why they were interested in the platform in the first place but right now I do not think or feel that Leoventures is heavily involved on what is being posted or what direction the site is heading. 

Ad 2. If there was any obvious activity that would be part of reaching this requirement than a banner would be an option, but I do not see any active recruiting for LV. Not here on the forum nor by the streamers. All are showcasing the sites they are playing on and while banners are there and links of bots I rarely see streamers actively hunting for new people to sign up because they were instructed otherwise the extra bonus will not be paid out

Ad 3. You are right about this but in what way would a banner help? You visit the forum and there is a popup: attention, this domain is owned 51% by Leoventures, content and activities maybe influenced and regulated by LV management. CG and its people may be exploited for promotional purposes. Proceed with caution. I am exaggerating ofcourse but explain to me what a banner/disclaimer should say in your opinion and what would be the main purpose of such a thing.

Ad 4. Same as Ad 3 basically, would like to know your reasoning behind this

Ad 5. Not sure if this is what you mean, but I see you are respecting the independency of streamers regardless if they stream on LV or not but since they are within the CG group it makes them "infected" by the Leoventures 51% majority vote and thus should make this clear to their viewers that they are part of a business seeking profit? 

As latest member of the CG streamteam I can honestly say I was given the choice where to play. No top down instructions where given to me on how to behave or what to promote. Only tips for legislation purposes where given and rest was pretty much up to me. Personally I joined because I felt like I could bring something to the community, to make content and share my passion for slots. Not to get a piece of the pie and be a doll of a puppetmaster so to speak. Then it would become work and I have a fulltime job already

[Kazommm]

Hi Ki4Life.

You pose some good arguments. But I'm struggling to understand why the community are so opposed to there being a clear statement of ownership? A subtle asterix  next to the text about sign-up bonuses if signing up with the streamer, that tells the would be customers that CG is owned by LV, would be sufficient.  And/or a logo in the bottom of the CG-page, would also be welcomed.

" but explain to me what a banner/disclaimer should say in your opinion and what would be the main purpose of such a thing. ". Let me turn this question around, why shouldn't there be, why aren't LV proud to show of their ownership in the biggest casino streaming network?

" but I do not see any active recruiting for LV. ". I regard affiliate links, and promotions benefiting those with a Leovegas-account, such as last months Tiki-Hulu competition by Kim, active recruiting.

And the elephant in the room, which nobody talks about: Why would Leovegas invest such a large amount of money in CG, if they don't benefit from it? I'm pretty sure they aren't doing it for "the greater goods".

[Skylined87]

20 minutes ago, Kazommm said:

Hi Ki4Life.

You pose some good arguments. But I'm struggling to understand why the community are so opposed to there being a clear statement of ownership? A subtle asterix  next to the text about sign-up bonuses if signing up with the streamer, that tells the would be customers that CG is owned by LV, would be sufficient.  And/or a logo in the bottom of the CG-page, would also be welcomed.

" but explain to me what a banner/disclaimer should say in your opinion and what would be the main purpose of such a thing. ". Let me turn this question around, why shouldn't there be, why aren't LV proud to show of their ownership in the biggest casino streaming network?

" but I do not see any active recruiting for LV. ". I regard affiliate links, and promotions benefiting those with a Leovegas-account, such as last months Tiki-Hulu competition by Kim, active recruiting.

And the elephant in the room, which nobody talks about: Why would Leovegas invest such a large amount of money in CG, if they don't benefit from it? I'm pretty sure they aren't doing it for "the greater goods".

Hey @Kazommm!

As per your suggestion, I have now added text about the investment to our about us page. Feel free to check it out.

On a second note, please be advised that it was LeoVentures (investment  company) who invested in CasinoGrounds - http://leovegasgroup.com/en/leoventures/

If you have any further concerns please let me know.

[Kazommm]

29 minutes ago, Skylined87 said:

Hey @Kazommm!

As per your suggestion, I have now added text about the investment to our about us page. Feel free to check it out.

On a second note, please be advised that it was LeoVentures (investment  company) who invested in CasinoGrounds - http://leovegasgroup.com/en/leoventures/

If you have any further concerns please let me know.

Hi Skylined.

I appreciate the gesture, thanks!

 

Have a great weekend.

Kazommm

[pausefisk]

Can i ask a fair question in all this?

Those casinos listed on CG as "trusted casinos", when we use a signup link from here, who benefits from it? I know that the streamers benefit when you use their personal links, but let's say one streamer mostly play at (lets just say) "FUN CASINO" and are the streamer that mostly (only) promote that casino. If that casino is listed on CG, and I use that link, will that streamer get the comission, or the CG owner (where 51% goes into Leoventures).

 

[Skylined87]

1 hour ago, pausefisk said:

Can i ask a fair question in all this?

Those casinos listed on CG as "trusted casinos", when we use a signup link from here, who benefits from it? I know that the streamers benefit when you use their personal links, but let's say one streamer mostly play at (lets just say) "FUN CASINO" and are the streamer that mostly (only) promote that casino. If that casino is listed on CG, and I use that link, will that streamer get the comission, or the CG owner (where 51% goes into Leoventures).

 

Hey @pausefisk!

Streamers use their links on YouTube and Twitch - benefits go to them.

Then we have 2 type of links on the website:

- Streamer Profile pages - Streamer links are advertised there, so they benefit

- Bonuses page - Casinogrounds gets the benefits, however keep in mind it goes to Casinogrounds for further promotions, development and employment.

Hope that answered your question.

[pausefisk]

@Skylined87 yes, thank you for clearing that up!

Btw, you don't need millions to host a community site/forum. But i get what you're trying to say

[Kazommm]

17 minutes ago, pausefisk said:

@Skylined87 yes, thank you for clearing that up!

Btw, you don't need millions to host a community site/forum. But i get what you're trying to say

That's what I said as well. A potential 45 million SEK, plus revenue from affiliate links, to host forum and pay bills is a decent amount

 

But nobody has answered my question, I am really curious as to what was the reasons for Leovegas to take part in the community?
I get CG, trying to survive as streaming host and forum, but are Leovegas' motives purely altruistic, it sure seems so by the answers I've gotten?

[SuperSmask]

Gustaf Hagman, LeoVegas' Group CEO, comments: "In CasinoGrounds we see a new behaviour in which persons interested in casino are watching others play casino via YouTube and Twitch. CasinoGrounds has created a new niche through its live streaming and social platform, which are highly appreciated by players. The combination of proprietary content and the moving picture format create exciting opportunities going forward and is in line with LeoVegas' strategy to be an innovative and entrepreneur-driven company. LeoVegas has had successful cooperation with CasinoGrounds since 2016, and we know their team well. Our ambition is now to scale up existing operations to more markets."

 

This is the statement the CEO of LeoVegas gave about the joint venture. Taken from below article on Nasdaq.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/12/06/1233981/0/en/LeoVegas-invests-in-the-leading-streaming-network-CasinoGrounds.html

[Kazommm]

22 minutes ago, SuperSmask said:

Gustaf Hagman, LeoVegas' Group CEO, comments: "In CasinoGrounds we see a new behaviour in which persons interested in casino are watching others play casino via YouTube and Twitch. CasinoGrounds has created a new niche through its live streaming and social platform, which are highly appreciated by players. The combination of proprietary content and the moving picture format create exciting opportunities going forward and is in line with LeoVegas' strategy to be an innovative and entrepreneur-driven company. LeoVegas has had successful cooperation with CasinoGrounds since 2016, and we know their team well. Our ambition is now to scale up existing operations to more markets."

 

This is the statement the CEO of LeoVegas gave about the joint venture. Taken from below article on Nasdaq.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/12/06/1233981/0/en/LeoVegas-invests-in-the-leading-streaming-network-CasinoGrounds.html

Thanks Supersmask.

I.e.,they're in it for the money, hoping CG can help them expand their market, which is perfectly fine. Thanks for clearifying.

[soto]

Another thread that will go "bye bye"

@Huggehugg what are you talking about:

"I do not quite understand what you mean with lack of transparency and honesty, Kim has talked about this several times in his stream"

When he gets the question he says "I'v talked about it already, but can't say anything, there are threads about it on the forum". The only problem is that CG removes every thread about the subject. Just for fun, when this is a gambling forum and all, show me one good clip where he explains about this subject and I'll paypal you $500. BUT if I can show you 5 times he said "Can't talk about it to much, look at the forum" you send me $500, deal? I mean, every thread like this, Kim never answers, or any other of the "big dogs". I'ts just the "community streamers" that replies, and they really dont know anything about the deal between LV and CG.

Like @Ki4Life says:

"I dont think the platform CG has changed its course since the deal"

The question @Kazommm and others have asked many times before is meant for somone who knows things. Getting a answer from "community streamers" like @Ki4Life and @Slotplayer  says they "think think think" know whats going on wont lead anywhere.

Leovegas is one of the worst casinos out there imo. Whit the lack of "customer loyalty" that @Slotplayer pointed out, and also since they were one of the casinos that allowed streamers to play with fake money I wont trust them. So if leovegas OWNS casinoground i would like to know about it. And if CG stands for transparency why is this such a touchy subject, it blows my mind. Just own up to it.

Do people really think that LV wont try to shift CG to their favor after buying it for SEK30m? How can anyone think that they would buy it so it would gain the competitors more then them self. @Skylined87 pointing out that its "LeoVentures" who made the investment, so what? If you know how companies work the goal is to maximize profits, if they own a casino they will try to make "that casino" grow as much as possible vs competitors. This kind of comments just adds to the shadiness of it all.

And one last thing. So they say casinoground stands for "transparency and that streamers play with there own money". What is the difference if you get "free money from a casino to play" against getting a deal for SEK30m. if kim and others got a SEK1m each payday, do they still play with there "own" money. Affiliation is one thing, so not talking about the "community streamers". About the "transparency" I guess I'll just take this LV owning CG deal as a example and then its enough said about that.

I guess CG will find a reason to remove this post, or the whole thread. Just my two cents. Maybe this is a better discussion to have over at casinomeister anyways, I think it would rank better aswell for people searching for this subject on google.

Cheerios!

[Huggehugg]

@soto You need to understand that LeoVentures and LeoVegas are two different things! LeoVentures is a investment company while LeoVegas is an online casino.

[Kazommm]

 

37 minutes ago, soto said:

Another thread that will go "bye bye"

@Huggehugg what are you talking about:

"I do not quite understand what you mean with lack of transparency and honesty, Kim has talked about this several times in his stream"

When he gets the question he says "I'v talked about it already, but can't say anything, there are threads about it on the forum". The only problem is that CG removes every thread about the subject. Just for fun, when this is a gambling forum and all, show me one good clip where he explains about this subject and I'll paypal you $500. BUT if I can show you 5 times he said "Can't talk about it to much, look at the forum" you send me $500, deal? I mean, every thread like this, Kim never answers, or any other of the "big dogs". I'ts just the "community streamers" that replies, and they really dont know anything about the deal between LV and CG.

Like @Ki4Life says:

"I dont think the platform CG has changed its course since the deal"

The question @Kazommm and others have asked many times before is meant for somone who knows things. Getting a answer from "community streamers" like @Ki4Life and @Slotplayer  says they "think think think" know whats going on wont lead anywhere.

Leovegas is one of the worst casinos out there imo. Whit the lack of "customer loyalty" that @Slotplayer pointed out, and also since they were one of the casinos that allowed streamers to play with fake money I wont trust them. So if leovegas OWNS casinoground i would like to know about it. And if CG stands for transparency why is this such a touchy subject, it blows my mind. Just own up to it.

Do people really think that LV wont try to shift CG to their favor after buying it for SEK30m? How can anyone think that they would buy it so it would gain the competitors more then them self. @Skylined87 pointing out that its "LeoVentures" who made the investment, so what? If you know how companies work the goal is to maximize profits, if they own a casino they will try to make "that casino" grow as much as possible vs competitors. This kind of comments just adds to the shadiness of it all.

And one last thing. So they say casinoground stands for "transparency and that streamers play with there own money". What is the difference if you get "free money from a casino to play" against getting a deal for SEK30m. if kim and others got a SEK1m each payday, do they still play with there "own" money. Affiliation is one thing, so not talking about the "community streamers". About the "transparency" I guess I'll just take this LV owning CG deal as a example and then its enough said about that.

I guess CG will find a reason to remove this post, or the whole thread. Just my two cents. Maybe this is a better discussion to have over at casinomeister anyways, I think it would rank better aswell for people searching for this subject on google.

Cheerios!

Great post, thanks for backing up my arguments.

As a funny sidenote, regarding your claim about no big dogs answering: Kim visited my profile earlier today, so he has clearly read the thread, but refused to answer.

8 minutes ago, Huggehugg said:

@soto You need to understand that LeoVentures and LeoVegas are two different things! LeoVentures is a investment company while LeoVegas is an online casino.

Huggehugg: Do leoventures and Leovegas have the same owners?

[soto]

18 minutes ago, Huggehugg said:

@soto You need to understand that LeoVentures and LeoVegas are two different things! LeoVentures is a investment company while LeoVegas is an online casino.

And you need to understand that investments companies goals is to maximize profits from it's investments. A question for you would be: If you have a investment in a online casino and a casino community, how would you maximize your profits? You own 51% of the casino community, so what you say they have to do. So... would you make the casino community support your casinos in some way to make more money. OR would you make the casino community to support other competitors in the same way as the casinos you have intrests in?

They have invested SEK30m, they will want to get that back in som way right? Will they get it from the "community streamers"? No, as they say they have their own deals. Im just interested in how you see it all, could you elaborate? Your statement sound like you want to make it a big difference that LeoVentures invested and not LeoVegas, what is this big difference i wounder?

And just so I understand another thing, you wont take me up on that bet I suggested?

@Kazommm Yeah I guess they dont want to talk about it coz people will say CG are bias towards LeoVegas, and that they wont have any arguments against it.

[Slotplayer]

5 hours ago, soto said:

And you need to understand that investments companies goals is to maximize profits from it's investments. A question for you would be: If you have a investment in a online casino and a casino community, how would you maximize your profits? You own 51% of the casino community, so what you say they have to do. So... would you make the casino community support your casinos in some way to make more money. OR would you make the casino community to support other competitors in the same way as the casinos you have intrests in?

They have invested SEK30m, they will want to get that back in som way right? Will they get it from the "community streamers"? No, as they say they have their own deals. Im just interested in how you see it all, could you elaborate? Your statement sound like you want to make it a big difference that LeoVentures invested and not LeoVegas, what is this big difference i wounder?

And just so I understand another thing, you wont take me up on that bet I suggested?

@Kazommm Yeah I guess they dont want to talk about it coz people will say CG are bias towards LeoVegas, and that they wont have any arguments against it.

If you look at the index page of this site, there are a number of casinos listed that are reviewed. Most of these casinos are competitors of Leovegas so you would have thought it is not in their interest for players to sign up there. You would have thought the players rather sign up at Leovegas as far as they are concerned.

Perhaps the value of the site sits at offering the readers a variety of casinos. Perhaps the value of the CG concept sits at offering viewers of CG streamers a variety of casinos to sign up at. Not all casinos are the same and some people prefer one over the others. Leovegas casino is not everybodies cup of tea so to speak.

[pausefisk]

5 hours ago, Slotplayer said:

If you look at the index page of this site, there are a number of casinos listed that are reviewed. Most of these casinos are competitors of Leovegas so you would have thought it is not in their interest for players to sign up there. You would have thought the players rather sign up at Leovegas as far as they are concerned.

Perhaps the value of the site sits at offering the readers a variety of casinos. Perhaps the value of the CG concept sits at offering viewers of CG streamers a variety of casinos to sign up at. Not all casinos are the same and some people prefer one over the others. Leovegas casino is not everybodies cup of tea so to speak.

I think Leo is smart, getting comission from competitors. Brilliant