Dunder - say abused bonus but no prove

[jaki33]

Hey all,

 

This is my first time posting but I've been a longtime lurker. I just want to explain my situation with dunder.com and advice players to think carefully before signing up there. have seen quite a few streamers play there so I thought it would be pretty safe. I started with the first deposit bonus of 40 euro so I had 80 euro to play with and 2000 wager to complete.

 

It is going pretty well for me and I decide to save my bonuses to play when I have lower balance. I always read t&c carefully as I would like to not have a problem with the casino site. The only rule they have is rule 10.12 which states this 10.12 Winnings from "free spin" or "bonus" rounds features initiated with bonus funds but completed after the bonus has been wagered, lost or forfeited will be removed.

Now what I did was go to balance 0.03 which is not bonus lost and I managed to gather 12 bonuses from 12 slots, I played my first one which was happy halloween and won 21.72 euro, I press spin again and I see the balance drop to 0. Now  I thought this was just some error so i played the rest of the bonuses. I end up "winning" over 357 euro but still having 2 bonuses left to play but the balance 0.

 

 

Now what they said is that the balance went below 0.1 and therefor I forfeited the bonus. This is nowhere stated in the t&c and I would of course not have gone below that then. I end up going back and forth with them to prove that they can take the bonus away if I got below 0.1 balance and to show where it is in writing in the t&c. I end up getting this answer which I of course knew all along " as you are correct I have added back the amount".

 

Now that amount they added back is the 21.72 euro I won from the first bonus I played, I ask them what about the rest and they state that they only owe this because I had no money left to play the others. Now if you look at the image with the bonuses, it clearly says I won 21.72 which they agreed and they were wrong to remove the bonus. Then I placed  a bet of 0.03 which would leave me of course with the 21.72 euro balance when I played the rest so of course all should be funded back to my account. This has been going back and forth now and they are always talking to a new manager and now the latest their security department.

 

I just want fair play, the house has enough edge already and doesn't need to take more money away from people, how are the players supposed to win if casinos decide when and if they feel like it to take your money due to no reason? I have asked them countless times to prove how I abused the bonus, I still had 1090 wager left so there was nothing to abuse, I just wanted to try a new casino.

 

Anyway thank you for taking your time to read this and good luck gambling elsewhere.

 

[Skylined87]

Hi!

To me (and to the casino) it seems like a bonus abuse. If you were watching any of our streamers, I'm sure you heard that "bonus hunts" while on bonus balance is generally a really bad idea, as on most casinos it will void the bonus. Most casinos have set a certain limit at which the bonus is marked as "complete" - that applies to lower balances like below 1€ or below 10cents.  To me it seems like they made a gesture of good will and added some funds back to your account anyway.

I hope you'll be more careful next time as I'm pretty sure all of the casinos don't like these type of players and will most likely result in a voided bonus.

[jaki33]

But why should it matter to bonus hunt or not on a bonus? they state that I can't go to 0 balance which ofcourse I understand. It's set in place so I cant finish the wagering and then do the bonuses I know that. But my problem is they never state this anywhere, how is a player supposed to know that it's forfeited below 0.1 balance? I read the t&c and always play within limits so this to me sounds ridiculous. I would accept this completely if they had stated in t&c and the bonus is forfeited below x amount.

 

And most players don't watch streams so the rules need to be stated in the t&c, how can a casino do what they wish outside of t&c? The rules are supposed to be followed by both parties

 

[Skylined87]

I agree on the part that it should be written in terms at what balance the bonus is "forfeited" that's for sure.

So yes, it's a responsibility of the casinos to write that information, but it's also player's responsibility to ask the support if something isn't clear or understood in the terms, just to avoid any issues while playing at the casino - a simple question to the support "at what balance is the bonus automatically forfeited?" would save you alot of trouble

[jaki33]

Thank you for the replies skylined, I will for sure do it from now on but I do not think it is the players responsibility as what we are supposed to do is follow the t&c. The t&c in today's casinos are so long and very confusing so for us to even have to think to ask them for more information outside of the t&c, does not sound right or our responsibility. I have also had very low balance on casumo and there it was no problem so I would not suspect it to be a hidden term elsewhere (looks quite shady also).

 

[Skylined87]

Yes I agree that most of the times going through t&c can be a tedious task and even after reading all you still end up with "what did I just read"  However as stated previously, if you lack some information or something is not clear - go to support for clarification / confirmation - and save that conversation as it might be handy if something similar happens in the future, because what they say on there is as good as t&c and you can hold them by the information provided there.

[ryans_slots]

@jaki33 its basically easy way of getting rid of the wagering, going below a certain amount then playing the bonuses and hope for a big win to cashout it's bonus abuse, the casinos would be losing thousands/ hundreds of thousands if not millions if everyone did this. remember anyone who does a bonus hunt, / saves bonuses PLAY WITHOUT A BONUS DEPOSIT. 

[Tombha]

yeah i think you tried to abuse the system and got caught.. good luck next time.. 

[jaki33]

I still have the wagering left of 1090 euro so no I was not abusing that. Why would I not then go to 0 balance instead of leave it at 0.03 before i played the bonuses? doesn't make sense to leave it at 0.03 with 1090 wager left if I was going to abuse. please read the whole post before commenting

[jaki33]

4 minutes ago, themagics92 said:

@jaki33 its basically easy way of getting rid of the wagering, going below a certain amount then playing the bonuses and hope for a big win to cashout it's bonus abuse, the casinos would be losing thousands/ hundreds of thousands if not millions if everyone did this. remember anyone who does a bonus hunt, / saves bonuses PLAY WITHOUT A BONUS DEPOSIT. 

I understand like I said to skylined but then they should say it in the t&c as I would not have gone so low then. I don't care if i have to finish the wagering because that was never the issue, if it was then I would have deposited raw. I have played for many years on online casinos and never had an issue to complain about as I always stay within the t&c when I play and take bonus. which is what I did here.

[Guest]

I have read through everything you have said carefully and to me that would class as bonus abuse i am afraid Jaki. I do feel for you Jaki - but in the future never do a bonus hunt with bonus money for a start and secondly if you are ever un-sure then contact chat support. In my experience Dunder have been a really good casino - i think no matter where you play you would have the same result i am afraid. 

If they have made a gesture of good will and added you some play balance then i would just take it at least you got something. Most casinos wouldn't even offer you that. 

[NudgeShuffle]

Jaki33,

I'm with you in this one. Your actions did not satisfy any the three conditions specified in 10.12 so where is the breach?

It's actually the casino that put you in breach by forfeiting your bonus at a level of their choosing but that was their action and not yours.

Sadly, you'll get little sympathy online in these forums. The level of unfairness has become so endemic and unbalanced that it's become the accepted norm.

Best to chalk this one down to experience and move on.

 

[SuperSmask]

This is on Dunder

10.12 Winnings from "free spin" or "bonus" rounds features initiated with bonus funds but completed after the bonus has been wagered, lost or forfeited will be removed.

This is a pretty tough one. Some casinos actually have "Delay of game rounds are not allowed while on a bonus" which I think is propably better.  No matter what, we all know this Bonus Hunting thing is mostly not allowed, so ALWAYS contact chat and ask.

I asked Rizk, where I play a lot (they have the exact same text as Dunder), BEFORE I started my bonus hunt. I was told no go, so i just played "normally".

This won't help your case, but like @NudgeShuffle said a learning experience. Sry..

[jaki33]

50 minutes ago, NudgeShuffle said:

Jaki33,

I'm with you in this one. Your actions did not satisfy any the three conditions specified in 10.12 so where is the breach?

It's actually the casino that put you in breach by forfeiting your bonus at a level of their choosing but that was their action and not yours.

Sadly, you'll get little sympathy online in these forums. The level of unfairness has become so endemic and unbalanced that it's become the accepted norm.

Best to chalk this one down to experience and move on.

 

Thank you for the understanding, it's quite alright that I get no sympathy as this post was mostly for people to judge by themselves. If people believe this was fair then that's okay. But for me, I want casinos to have to actually own up to their own t&c. They already have a great house edge so I don't like to condone shady behavior like this to fatten their pockets even more. T&C should work both ways, they say what you can do and if you follow them you should be okay, it should not be alright for them to create and or change rules after you have accepted them with depositing and playing.

[jaki33]

25 minutes ago, SuperSmask said:

This is on Dunder

10.12 Winnings from "free spin" or "bonus" rounds features initiated with bonus funds but completed after the bonus has been wagered, lost or forfeited will be removed.

This is a pretty tough one. Some casinos actually have "Delay of game rounds are not allowed while on a bonus" which I think is propably better.  No matter what, we all know this Bonus Hunting thing is mostly not allowed, so ALWAYS contact chat and ask.

I asked Rizk, where I play a lot (they have the exact same text as Dunder), BEFORE I started my bonus hunt. I was told no go, so i just played "normally".

This won't help your case, but like @NudgeShuffle said a learning experience. Sry..

Well I had no idea that bonus hunting was looked down upon, if they had stated what you said there then I would of course not have saved the bonuses. It's not like i'm gaining something by doing it, I just wanted to play differently. They should have to state it though as we are supposed to follow the t&c and not what they make of it.  But I can say for certain I won't be doing this bonus hunting thing again.

 

[Slotspinner]

Bonus hunting isnt looked down upon, if you do it with pure cash balance. Nobody really has anything against it - but all of us CG Streamers keep repeating everywhere that you need to be very careful with what you do regarding bonus hunts in conjunction with deposit bonuses!
Streaming at dunder for almost half a year now - and its very respectable and will not try to take you off your cashout without real reasons.

[NudgeShuffle]

2 hours ago, SuperSmask said:

This is a pretty tough one. Some casinos actually have "Delay of game rounds are not allowed while on a bonus" which I think is propably better.  

I agree that is somewhat clearer although it's still ambiguous.  Suppose you triggered a bonus round and your laptop blew up at the same time preventing you from taking your bonus - technically you would be delaying your bonus albeit not through an intended action of your own.  I know that might seem far fetched but this it does highlight the problem with poorly worded statements leading to negative or unintended outcomes regardless of the "spirit" of the term.

If the casino really doesn't want you to bonus hunt then they should explicit state so i.e. "you cannot accumulate more than one bonus at any given time while on bonus money".

The point jaki33 makes, correctly so in my opinion, is that their terms do not forbid bonus hunting so I think Jaki can claim the moral victory here with no wagering attached!

[Slotspinner]

Personally i think this scenario is so uncommon that it will be looked at case by case everytime by the casino rather than dumppacked and then theyll make a decision upon it..
If you have issues with Dunder you can contact me though and i can try to sort it. Unsure about this case as i am 99% sure this is already closed case imo..

[jaki33]

1 hour ago, Slotspinner said:

Personally i think this scenario is so uncommon that it will be looked at case by case everytime by the casino rather than dumppacked and then theyll make a decision upon it..
If you have issues with Dunder you can contact me though and i can try to sort it. Unsure about this case as i am 99% sure this is already closed case imo..

Thank you Slotspinner for the offer, I doubt they will do anything about it as they are pretty adamant. Although the last thing they said to me is that they are going to specify the rules which kind of says I was right but at least the next person might not experience what I did.

 

 

[Dunder.Paul]

Hi Jaki33,

I’m sorry to hear about this issue which you are currently experiencing with Dunder.

As has been explained both by Oda & Marek as well as within this thread the issue arises from your attempt at bonus hunting – there are many factors at play which have prompted the completion of your bonus, to mitigate against bonus abuse.  I have spoken to our CRM team on the issue and it is worth noting that these issues are reviewed on a case by case basis, as was done here by the crediting of funds to your account. We also require that there is fair play from the players perspective.

We value the Casino Grounds community very highly at Dunder and aim to maintain the positive relationship which we currently have.

If you are unsatisfied with the progress of this case or have any other issues please feel free to drop me a PM.

Best,

Paul

[jaki33]

2 hours ago, Dunder.Paul said:

Hi Jaki33,

I’m sorry to hear about this issue which you are currently experiencing with Dunder.

As has been explained both by Oda & Marek as well as within this thread the issue arises from your attempt at bonus hunting – there are many factors at play which have prompted the completion of your bonus, to mitigate against bonus abuse.  I have spoken to our CRM team on the issue and it is worth noting that these issues are reviewed on a case by case basis, as was done here by the crediting of funds to your account. We also require that there is fair play from the players perspective.

We value the Casino Grounds community very highly at Dunder and aim to maintain the positive relationship which we currently have.

If you are unsatisfied with the progress of this case or have any other issues please feel free to drop me a PM.

Best,

Paul

Thank you for the reply Paul,

I know this problem arises from trying to mitigate from bonus abuse like I said. But the problem is you state in the rules that I cannot lose the balance then play bonuses but what I did wasn't losing the balance so of course I thought it was okay. I just think it would have been better on dunders part to either specify the rule so they don't have to bend it their way or simply refund the balance as this would clearly not have happened if the t&c was stated correctly.

I am of course not satisfied with the way dunder handled this case which is why i'm letting players know of my experience there which I believe is not fair.

Best regards.

[HADTOCHANGE]

I recently played at VIKS and done a bonus hunt to 0.08 played 30 bonuses and everything was fine. Dunder is a good site and I dont think anything has been underhand here, however I do feel you have been treated badly on this one.

If it does not state clearly in the T&Cs then he should be allowed do what he pleases with his bonuses/Money and to use an excuse that streamers warn players about this is just nonsense as not everyone watches people gambling.

I think in this case Dunder should as a good will gesture settle the bet in full and  make a small amendment in the T&C's for future players then every one is a winner. No one would bonus hunt if it was clear it was frowned upon with bonus money and its the players fault if they do not read the TC's but it needs to be in there!

 

Also like to say I cahed out thankful and all good at what seems to be a new site, might hunt again on the second deposit lol

[jaki33]

5 minutes ago, HADTOCHANGE said:

I recently played at VIKS and done a bonus hunt to 0.08 played 30 bonuses and everything was fine. Dunder is a good site and I dont think anything has been underhand here, however I do feel you have been treated badly on this one.

If it does not state clearly in the T&Cs then he should be allowed do what he pleases with his bonuses/Money and to use an excuse that streamers warn players about this is just nonsense as not everyone watches people gambling.

I think in this case Dunder should as a good will gesture settle the bet in full and  make a small amendment in the T&C's for future players then every one is a winner. No one would bonus hunt if it was clear it was frowned upon with bonus money and its the players fault if they do not read the TC's but it needs to be in there!

 

Also like to say I cahed out thankful and all good at what seems to be a new site, might hunt again on the second deposit lol

Thank you for the comment, I'm glad you were able to cashout.

[Slotplayer]

The question begs why do a bonus hunt in the first place?

I think the concept was introduced by streamers for entertainment purposes.

I never do one. Say you hit relatively big on the first bonus. It means you can have an instant withdrawal or play with bigger bets. Won't happen when you play that bonus out at a zero balance.

[jaki33]

3 hours ago, Slotplayer said:

The question begs why do a bonus hunt in the first place?

I think the concept was introduced by streamers for entertainment purposes.

I never do one. Say you hit relatively big on the first bonus. It means you can have an instant withdrawal or play with bigger bets. Won't happen when you play that bonus out at a zero balance.

Well like you say yourself, it's just entertainment. I see it being done mostly on bonuses because you can't cash out immediately  even if you win big.