Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 This is a topic which really interests me and I would love to hear feedback from people who have relevant information on this. I always wonder how predetermined slots are, and if you get a bonus round is the outcome known from the moment you click to start or is it random? Well I saw some messages from someone who has a partner in the gaming industry and he says that everything in slots is predetermined! even when you get a bonus round on millionaire no matter how many spins you end up having the result is known from the start. So there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHAT SO EVER TO GAMBLE YOUR SPINS! same with Chilli and every other game... if you suppose to end with 500X on your bonus you will end up with 500x no matter if you had 8 spins or 50 spins! (I actually noticed on Millionaire after having around 30 bonus rounds that the best wins I had were with 8 spins!). So this is hard to believe but now I can even show you a video to prove how this is very true! In the link below , watch at 20 :40 , where Chip gets the bonus on Dragon Fire , before he even picks the spins option the balance on the top right hand side where it says casino heroes is updated from 1459£ to 2870£! the exact 1400£ that he then ends up winning in the bonus round! So even before anything in the bonus round actually started the outcome was already updated in the balance! and there are few more examples in this video to show this (same with Genie Megaways...) I would like to know your thoughts about this? I am surprised professional online streamers don't seem to know this and they keep gambling away spins on millionaire and chilli and other slots for nothing... Link to comment
Geordiemag1 Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 What I belive is that they use a rng so they are random but as soon as you press spin the outcome is decided the reels are just an imagine to show a win. So that's why some games show a win before a bonus has finished. I could be completely wrong though lol. Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 I know the outcome is decided as soon as you press the spin, takes time for the visuals to show ... but this is about bonus rounds, how it's all predetermined even before you start the bonus which means that it's FUTILE to gamble the free spins on any game and just take the ones you get to start with (like Millionaire and extra Chilli) Link to comment
brawlbats1 Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 Red Tiger games such as Dragon Fire are known to be predetermined as soon as the bonus triggers but other providers like BTG have said that every spins of their bonus was a new random spin so their bonus aren't predetermined from the start of it. Link to comment
Slotspinner Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 Sir, have you played 8 spins on chilli compared to 24, there is a huge difference on average payout normal games know the outcome already, but gambling spins changes your bonus for sure Link to comment
Schnuggels21 Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 53 minutes ago, Slotspinner said: Sir, have you played 8 spins on chilli compared to 24, there is a huge difference on average payout normal games know the outcome already, but gambling spins changes your bonus for sure Well the game states that it has higher RTP if you gamble everytime. The question is if it is worth it for a normal player or if you just take the 8 spins everytime. My best win on Chilli 1000x + was on 8 spins. Never came close to it again with 16 to 24 spins. Maybe just bad luck on my side Link to comment
Andreas Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 There is a huge difference between games where the user doesn't risk anything by choosing and when he does. In Dragon Fire there is no other path for the player than to select dragons whenever he triggers freespins or retriggers (hence it is fine from a regulatory perspective to be predetermined) while in Extra Chilli the player is actually gambling with their stake when spinning for more freespins - and then the outcome is not allowed to be predetermined because that would be to cheat the player (and would therefore not pass the audit when game is going through compliance). Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 How do you explain then the video which I posted.. you can see numerous times with Dragon fire and Genie Jackpot how the bonus outcome is updated before anything happens? I have seen big Chili wins on 8 spins and smaller ones on 24.. same as I saw small wins on Millionaire with 20 spins and big ones which I got over 600X with just 8 spins. If the game decides this bonus you will get X amount your bet he will give it to you regardless of the amount of spins you have.. and it can also decide to cut your spin gamble on any amount of spins he decides to give you this X bet multiplier (Chili with 8 or 12 Millionaire anywhere on the ladder) .. I wish we had someone from BTG to officially confirm this is not true! Link to comment
Andreas Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 Aviad - it's explained by the outcome being determined when the bonus is triggered. However, in those cases you are not risking anything, your "actual" gamble is when you trigger or buy the bonus, the rest is "animation" and means to make it exciting. When you "gamble" your bonus however, there is an additional element of chance and therefore you will get different outcomes depending on if you do it or not. That's not to say that an 8 spin feature can't be better than if you've gambled it up to 16 - but on average the latter one will definitely be a lot better. Link to comment
TheManbearpig Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 @Aviad do not expect providers tell u the truth,look at the jamming jars how they suposed to be random but they like scrath card actually Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 37 minutes ago, Andreas said: There is a huge difference between games where the user doesn't risk anything by choosing and when he does. In Dragon Fire there is no other path for the player than to select dragons whenever he triggers freespins or retriggers (hence it is fine from a regulatory perspective to be predetermined) while in Extra Chilli the player is actually gambling with their stake when spinning for more freespins - and then the outcome is not allowed to be predetermined because that would be to cheat the player (and would therefore not pass the audit when game is going through compliance). That is an interesting point , it makes sense what you say... there is a difference when you need to choose between 3 symbols which determine your spins (that can be predetermined) to where you can gamble between not even getting any bonus at all (like Chili and Millionaire) . Still I have to tell you how I have had over 40 bonuses now on Millionaire and without fail, every single time I choose not to gamble the game tells me the correct answer is the one with the highest %, every single time!! but when i choose to gamble 30% of the time the highest % is not the correct one... how can that not be predetermined? 3 minutes ago, TheManbearpig said: @Aviad do not expect providers tell u the truth,look at the jamming jars how they suposed to be random but they like scrath card actually How do you see in Jammin that it's predetermined? Link to comment
Andreas Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 5 minutes ago, Aviad said: That is an interesting point , it makes sense what you say... there is a difference when you need to choose between 3 symbols which determine your spins (that can be predetermined) to where you can gamble between not even getting any bonus at all (like Chili and Millionaire) . Still I have to tell you how I have had over 40 bonuses now on Millionaire and without fail, every single time I choose not to gamble the game tells me the correct answer is the one with the highest %, every single time!! but when i choose to gamble 30% of the time the highest % is not the correct one... how can that not be predetermined? How do you see in Jammin that it's predetermined? I think that is just chance - I personally have walked away and got that the right answer wasn't the one with the highest %. Naturally it will most often be the one with the highest % that is the right one though. Also, in your instance it can definitely be 30% of the time it hasn't been correct for you, but you wouldn't be able to say the number stated isn't correct over a sample size of just 40 bonuses (you'd need thousands). When you play roulette for example and spin 40 times, it can easily be 10 black and 30 red across 40 spins, but if you spin 10000 times it'll be a lot closer to 50/50. Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 2 minutes ago, Andreas said: I think that is just chance - I personally have walked away and got that the right answer wasn't the one with the highest %. Naturally it will most often be the one with the highest % that is the right one though. Also, in your instance it can definitely be 30% of the time it hasn't been correct for you, but you wouldn't be able to say the number stated isn't correct over a sample size of just 40 bonuses (you'd need thousands). When you play roulette for example and spin 40 times, it can easily be 10 black and 30 red across 40 spins, but if you spin 10000 times it'll be a lot closer to 50/50. Well after having so many bonuses you would expect a more reasonable balance between when you choose to gamble or not and not that every single time you dont choose the highest is the correct and many times when you choose its not! and I have seen this many times on youtube videos from streamers! I have never seen once when someone chose not to gamble and the highest % was wrong! you are the first to tell me this has ever happened! I find these odds statistically too hard to accept even with a small sample of about 100 bonuses which I had or seen on stream.. very hard to accept... Link to comment
Andreas Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 1 minute ago, Aviad said: Well after having so many bonuses you would expect a more reasonable balance between when you choose to gamble or not and not that every single time you dont choose the highest is the correct and many times when you choose its not! and I have seen this many times on youtube videos from streamers! I have never seen once when someone chose not to gamble and the highest % was wrong! you are the first to tell me this has ever happened! I find these odds statistically too hard to accept even with a small sample of about 100 bonuses which I had or seen on stream.. very hard to accept... I'm can't swear that it's not more common that the game is showing the highest % being the correct one more often when you walk away (I don't think it does though). However, if that would be the case it would be a bit shady but it would not have affected the outcome of the gamble, as you'd already walked away. Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 1 minute ago, Andreas said: I'm can't swear that it's not more common that the game is showing the highest % being the correct one more often when you walk away (I don't think it does though). However, if that would be the case it would be a bit shady but it would not have affected the outcome of the gamble, as you'd already walked away. please send me a video of any stream where this has ever happened ? from all the streams on this game I have never see this happen once! And if the game decides which is the correct answer only after you choose yours , meaning if you choose A for example which is the highest % and the game says it's wrong, but if you would decide not to gamble the game would have said A is correct , it means the game is manipulating you with which answer is really the correct one is that not predetermined? Link to comment
Andreas Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 1 minute ago, Aviad said: please send me a video of any stream where this has ever happened ? from all the streams on this game I have never see this happen once! And if the game decides which is the correct answer only after you choose yours , meaning if you choose A for example which is the highest % and the game says it's wrong, but if you would decide not to gamble the game would have said A is correct , it means the game is manipulating you with which answer is really the correct one is that not predetermined? The way I've got it described to me by the developer is that if it's showing for example A 75% and you pick A, the RNG will "spin" and 75% of the time it will be "Correct". I don't know what happens if one chooses walk away but I'd imagine it being something similar. Unfortunately I don't have time to look for what you're asking for but hopefully someone else does. Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 Just now, Andreas said: The way I've got it described to me by the developer is that if it's showing for example A 75% and you pick A, the RNG will "spin" and 75% of the time it will be "Correct". I don't know what happens if one chooses walk away but I'd imagine it being something similar. Unfortunately I don't have time to look for what you're asking for but hopefully someone else does. OH, you spoke to the developer? how do you know him? is it possible for a normal person to contact BTG to get information on games like you did? if yes please give me the contact details I would very much appreciate it That kinda makes more sense the way you describe it with how the RNG spins subject to the % chance.. but it is weird that so far it never spins the wrong way when I choose to walk away.. thats why it seems very suspicious ... Link to comment
Andreas Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 13 minutes ago, Aviad said: OH, you spoke to the developer? how do you know him? is it possible for a normal person to contact BTG to get information on games like you did? if yes please give me the contact details I would very much appreciate it That kinda makes more sense the way you describe it with how the RNG spins subject to the % chance.. but it is weird that so far it never spins the wrong way when I choose to walk away.. thats why it seems very suspicious ... We quite regularly are in contact with BTG as Kim has done some of their game launches on stream in the past and Kim is my colleague. I don't know if they have an e-mail address for "players" but you could try to PM their rep here. Nickslots also had Nik on stream last year where he replied to many of these questions, perhaps give it a watch if you haven't already Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 7 minutes ago, Andreas said: We quite regularly are in contact with BTG as Kim has done some of their game launches on stream in the past and Kim is my colleague. I don't know if they have an e-mail address for "players" but you could try to PM their rep here. Nickslots also had Nik on stream last year where he replied to many of these questions, perhaps give it a watch if you haven't already I also sent Nick an email about this but he hasn't replied to me... I did once see a video on his channel where he has a visitor from one of the providers but the video didnt seem to play.. would you be kind enough to give me the link to this video with Nik answering questions.. thanks! Link to comment
Slotplayer Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 It is my understanding that in order for the game to be licensed, it must be totally random. Games like Jamming Jars as an example pick a random win and then play out the graphics to display that win. So the outcome is predetermined, but it is still random. For the majority of slots, however, each spin in the bonus round is randomly determined just like in the base game. There may be different set of reels than the base game in play though. In terms of the gamble features, again it is my understanding that what is displayed on the screen must reflect the actual gamble. So if you have a 60/40 chance of winning (like Extra Chili for example) then that is what happens in the background. But remember that the more gambles there are to the top, then you are going to, at some point, be hitting that 40% chance of not getting through hence the more that you spin that gamble wheel the more chance of getting stuck. It is simple statistics and odds. Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 4 minutes ago, Slotplayer said: It is my understanding that in order for the game to be licensed, it must be totally random. Games like Jamming Jars as an example pick a random win and then play out the graphics to display that win. So the outcome is predetermined, but it is still random. For the majority of slots, however, each spin in the bonus round is randomly determined just like in the base game. There may be different set of reels than the base game in play though. In terms of the gamble features, again it is my understanding that what is displayed on the screen must reflect the actual gamble. So if you have a 60/40 chance of winning (like Extra Chili for example) then that is what happens in the background. But remember that the more gambles there are to the top, then you are going to, at some point, be hitting that 40% chance of not getting through hence the more that you spin that gamble wheel the more chance of getting stuck. It is simple statistics and odds. Of course the outcome is random , but what we say is that a bonus round is predetermined before it's complete.. so no matter how many spins you have or what each spin will hit, youre X time bet win will be determined before the first spin of the bonus is initiated ! so the same when you gamble your spins, no matter if you gamble to 16 or 24 spins your win will be the same as it's predetermined. Link to comment
Slotplayer Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 1 minute ago, Aviad said: Of course the outcome is random , but what we say is that a bonus round is predetermined before it's complete.. so no matter how many spins you have or what each spin will hit, youre X time bet win will be determined before the first spin of the bonus is initiated ! so the same when you gamble your spins, no matter if you gamble to 16 or 24 spins your win will be the same as it's predetermined. With any gamble, it is not predetermined because how does the slot know when you decide to stop gambling and are satisfied with the number of spins you gambled to? If what you're stating is correct, then the game will not be licensed. The gamble feature statistically speaking increases the amount of money won, because the more spins you do, the more money the bonus earns. Link to comment
Aviad Posted 14 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 14 January, 2019 16 minutes ago, Slotplayer said: With any gamble, it is not predetermined because how does the slot know when you decide to stop gambling and are satisfied with the number of spins you gambled to? If what you're stating is correct, then the game will not be licensed. The gamble feature statistically speaking increases the amount of money won, because the more spins you do, the more money the bonus earns. read what I am writing, the amount of spins will be irrelevant if the game wants to give you X time your bet in the free spins it will give it with 8 spins of with 24 spins (of which half would be dead spins) so amount of spins is irrelevant. Link to comment
LordRimley Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 I have noticed something Else on genie jackpots. When u buy the bonus its already predetirmined what type of the 4 bonuses u get. Happend to me 4 times as i had to refresh page then the bonus was already picked without me clicking on any lamp. It is in fact a bit annoying? Link to comment
dirtystack Posted 14 January, 2019 Share Posted 14 January, 2019 i think its unfair to single out Jammin Jars all the time, most slots work in this fashion. The only difference between it and any other slot is that a Push Gaming rep came here and confirmed it. Reactoonz for example, you bet $1 the rng determines what figure you get paid and displays some graphics to represent that. example, you bet $1 rng determines you will get back $800 game displays a load of connections, incisions, implosions etc culminating in Garga appearing and connecting with 15 pinks. Link to comment
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