This will not be popular

[DhvBonanza]

Guys I am quite disappointed with the Casino Guide section - specifically the part about a slot guide for beginners.

Let me say I like David and his streams so I have nothing against him but do you really think this is morally acceptable?

What if I knew your friends/family and wrote them a guide for, "drugs for beginners", "smoking for beginners" or "alcoholism 101"? 

I have no problem teaching people that already gamble how to play slots but I'm not convinced these people are the target audience. I'm shocked to see what could be viewed as an encouragement for gambling for noobs or people that don't currently gamble on casinos/slots. I don't need to talk about perverse incentives because you all know it, it's like tobacco companies.

I would never wish smoking on your friends or family. It is a horrible, horrible addiction. For you guys to promote gambling and slots in particular which are statistically guaranteed to fleece you in the long-term and have proven addictive qualities WITH NO KNOWN CURE, is reprehensible. How would you feel if even one person took your advice and developed a serious problem which affected their friends and family? 

Keep these statistics in mind ..... according to UKGC, around 2 million people in the UK are addicted to gambling or on the verge of addiction, that's roughly 3% of the entire population. So for every 100 people that read a guide for beginners on gambling/slots, statistically 3 of them will display addictive tendencies and one will likely develop life-changing issues (problem gambler)

I might be banned for this post but hey, totally worth it

[SuperSmask]

I am very sure this topic will not be deleted and you will not be banned. Im gonna keep it short this time and say I totally disagree with you. It all depends on what you're mindset is when you read it. If a problem gambler reads this Im pretty sure he or she is one before they read it. The article, in my opinion, will NOT create a problem gambler. Over and out 

[Skylined87]

5 hours ago, DhvBonanza said:

Guys I am quite disappointed with the Casino Guide section - specifically the part about a slot guide for beginners.

Let me say I like David and his streams so I have nothing against him but do you really think this is morally acceptable?

What if I knew your friends/family and wrote them a guide for, "drugs for beginners", "smoking for beginners" or "alcoholism 101"? 

I have no problem teaching people that already gamble how to play slots but I'm not convinced these people are the target audience. I'm shocked to see what could be viewed as an encouragement for gambling for noobs or people that don't currently gamble on casinos/slots. I don't need to talk about perverse incentives because you all know it, it's like tobacco companies.

I would never wish smoking on your friends or family. It is a horrible, horrible addiction. For you guys to promote gambling and slots in particular which are statistically guaranteed to fleece you in the long-term and have proven addictive qualities WITH NO KNOWN CURE, is reprehensible. How would you feel if even one person took your advice and developed a serious problem which affected their friends and family? 

Keep these statistics in mind ..... according to UKGC, around 2 million people in the UK are addicted to gambling or on the verge of addiction, that's roughly 3% of the entire population. So for every 100 people that read a guide for beginners on gambling/slots, statistically 3 of them will display addictive tendencies and one will likely develop life-changing issues (problem gambler)

I might be banned for this post but hey, totally worth it

Hey there @DhvBonanza!

Thanks for the feedback. However I must point out that if you check casino guides, the first article under "Start here" section (5 tips for new slot players), check points 5. and 6. in that article, where all the dangers of gambling are widely covered.

With that being said - if people decide to gamble on their own - shouldn't we educate them on gambling? I.e. setting deposit limits (can you set that with alcohol or smoking?), urging people to read T&C's not to have their winnings confiscated and so on. 

Don't get me wrong, gambling can be VERY destructive, however if it is approached with a right mindset it will be a fun experience without worry of losing what you cannot afford.

 

[NudgeShuffle]

6 hours ago, DhvBonanza said:

Let me say I like David and his streams so I have nothing against him but do you really think this is morally acceptable?

You are aware that casinogrounds is an affiliate website right?

[DhvBonanza]

5 hours ago, Skylined87 said:

Hey there @DhvBonanza!

=Thanks for the feedback. However I must point out that if you check casino guides, the first article under "Start here" section (5 tips for new slot players), check points 5. and 6. in that article, where all the dangers of gambling are widely covered.

With that being said - if people decide to gamble on their own - shouldn't we educate them on gambling? I.e. setting deposit limits (can you set that with alcohol or smoking?), urging people to read T&C's not to have their winnings confiscated and so on. 

Don't get me wrong, gambling can be VERY destructive, however if it is approached with a right mindset it will be a fun experience without worry of losing what you cannot afford.

 

4

Hey Skylined ..... the bit where you say, "if people decided to gamble on their own shouldn't we educate them on gambling?" 

Yes, that's a good thing but I'm not sure that's what is happening or that is the design ambition.

My issue is that streamers will pull in an audience of not only hardened gamblers in the same age bracket as them (like me) but a bunch of younger gamblers and people who have maybe never played slots before. People on a society-wide level are malleable and weak. Like I describe in the stats above, if 100 normal British people who have never played slots read your articles and start playing, statistically 3 of them will become addicts and 1 of them a fucking liability. 

I just don't see how it's morally acceptable to encourage inexperienced people to gamble on slots when statistically they are certain to lose long-term (RTP < 100% means we are all losers, we just haven't realised it yet). I would have a different attitude to poker or equities. I would happily teach somebody how to play and manage their bankroll because I could be reasonably certain I would teach that person how to win, enjoy themselves and minimise the bad shit that comes with it (like the mood swings, staying up for 48 hours to play MTTs, etc) 

Slots are the worst form of gambling (least chance of winning) and all of us here somehow ignore that fact and played them for thousands of hours in our lifetimes. That's sad. While it is surely fun we should all acknowledge that it is a blight on our lives and we would be sick in the head to want to propagate that onto even 1 more person, just as we would be sick in the head to offer a non-smoker a cigarette. 

Anyway, I don't want it to seem like I am hating on you guys because I've watched the streams a lot and I genuinely like many of the streamers. I just think this could be done better or reworded such as, "slots are like smoking, they might be fun for a while but they will leave you with serious problems. Never start smoking and never start playing slots but if you already do those things ....... here is a nice guide for you"

[DhvBonanza]

5 hours ago, NudgeShuffle said:

You are aware that casinogrounds is an affiliate website right?

Yes I am and there is nothing wrong with fighting for a share of an already existing market

9 hours ago, SuperSmask said:

I am very sure this topic will not be deleted and you will not be banned. Im gonna keep it short this time and say I totally disagree with you. It all depends on what you're mindset is when you read it. If a problem gambler reads this Im pretty sure he or she is one before they read it. The article, in my opinion, will NOT create a problem gambler. Over and out 

With respect, I'm not sure you understand the point I was making. I repeated it above but if 100 normal, non-gambling people read these guides and start playing, statistically 3 of them will become addicts and 1 a serious problem gambler. That comes from independent studies and UKGC. If you went to Australia (the land of BTG) you would find the problem is even worse and is a drain on their society. If you want to ignore those facts because it is convenient for you, go right ahead. I'll gamble and conduct myself with both eyes open, thank you

[Skylined87]

32 minutes ago, DhvBonanza said:

Yes I am and there is nothing wrong with fighting for a share of an already existing market

With respect, I'm not sure you understand the point I was making. I repeated it above but if 100 normal, non-gambling people read these guides and start playing, statistically 3 of them will become addicts and 1 a serious problem gambler. That comes from independent studies and UKGC. If you went to Australia (the land of BTG) you would find the problem is even worse and is a drain on their society. If you want to ignore those facts because it is convenient for you, go right ahead. I'll gamble and conduct myself with both eyes open, thank you

Truth be told @DhvBonanza, if you have interest for gambling content, you will actively search for it. Sure, there is a _really_ small percentage of people who come across YouTube "recommended" videos which are related to gambling, but I do believe majority of the visitors of the site have genuine interest into gambling and that's why the guides are there. To inform people of dangers of gambling and to make them realize what can they do to keep their interest as a fun habit.

In regards to other addictions - some people go out drinking 2 times a week and spend at least 100EUR if not more for one night. For them - drinking and socializing is part of fun and they spend as much as they can afford. Now other people choose to stay at home and not go out and rather put some money into slots, again - their decision and interest. So the gambling issue is already there to start with, before even visiting any casino related website. You don't _really_ don't agree that we should inform people of responsible gambling and inform them of limits they can set and what dangers gambling represent?

[DhvBonanza]

@skylined87 - I never had an interest in gambling content (except poker) until very recently. I never searched for it but I came across a video on YouTube of people playing the machines I used to like to play, and that was pretty much it. I now know who most of the streamers are. I even know who you are as you are mentioned quite often in Nick and Kim's streams. I would never have played Bonanza or DHV if I hadn't seen streamers getting monster hits on them. That is a fact. 

I am an adult with 20 years experience of gambling. I know myself and I know the dangers. I will tell you honestly that watching streamers has encouraged me to gamble on slots a lot more. I have even swapped some poker sessions (which are statistically winners for me) for slot sessions (which are statistically losers). I'm just being honest and streamers here and in general do have power and influence. With great power comes great responsibility. 

I understand what you are saying about drinking and spending habits and for some people (adults who already gambled) it's a fair comparison between spending 100 EUR on a night out (ha cheapskates) or 100 EUR on slot machines. That's not my issue at all. My issue is that these folks who maybe spend 100 EUR at a bar but had never spent 100 EUR on slots are now choosing to play slots rather than go to the bar. It's just not something an informed person could promote as healthy or desirable (neither is the drinking of course). Let's change that to 100 EUR on golf, 100 EUR on gifts for your wife, children, extra savings in an account. Does it seem like a good comparison now? 

I agree 100% that responsible gambling should be taught, limits, deposit bonuses, T&C, tilt, all important. It's exactly the people who don't already know these things and don't already gamble that shouldn't be encouraged to play slots.

[Skylined87]

45 minutes ago, DhvBonanza said:

@skylined87 - I never had an interest in gambling content (except poker) until very recently. I never searched for it but I came across a video on YouTube of people playing the machines I used to like to play, and that was pretty much it. I now know who most of the streamers are. I even know who you are as you are mentioned quite often in Nick and Kim's streams. I would never have played Bonanza or DHV if I hadn't seen streamers getting monster hits on them. That is a fact. 

I am an adult with 20 years experience of gambling. I know myself and I know the dangers. I will tell you honestly that watching streamers has encouraged me to gamble on slots a lot more. I have even swapped some poker sessions (which are statistically winners for me) for slot sessions (which are statistically losers). I'm just being honest and streamers here and in general do have power and influence. With great power comes great responsibility. 

I understand what you are saying about drinking and spending habits and for some people (adults who already gambled) it's a fair comparison between spending 100 EUR on a night out (ha cheapskates) or 100 EUR on slot machines. That's not my issue at all. My issue is that these folks who maybe spend 100 EUR at a bar but had never spent 100 EUR on slots are now choosing to play slots rather than go to the bar. It's just not something an informed person could promote as healthy or desirable (neither is the drinking of course). Let's change that to 100 EUR on golf, 100 EUR on gifts for your wife, children, extra savings in an account. Does it seem like a good comparison now? 

I agree 100% that responsible gambling should be taught, limits, deposit bonuses, T&C, tilt, all important. It's exactly the people who don't already know these things and don't already gamble that shouldn't be encouraged to play slots.

@DhvBonanza About that 100EUR - I was speaking in regards of spending money to get fun/entertainment. We all spend money on fun - for some it's drinking, for some it's shopping, for some it's going to the movies, for some it's gambling.  

And again, a person who decides to gamble - it is their decision to do so - after all, we are adults? Or will you put the blame on the person that gave you the first cigarette and launch vendetta against that person? Or a person who offered you alcohol? You see where I'm going with that. It's all a matter of choice. Personally, I wish I'd never step through the door of land-based casino - a friend brought me there, so my first experience wasn't even online. If I had known the dangers it can represent, I would think twice. But now I do gamble and I have learned on how to keep it under control. And guides are there exactly for that, to teach you that gambling can be fun but also dangerous (I actually wrote the article I mentioned) - if you are new to slots or have years of experience on them. 

As for CasinoGrounds streamers, I do believe they are all vocal when it comes to responsible gambling and are not encouraging people to deposit. They are always there for the viewers if they have questions anything responsible gambling related.

And a bit of a personal thought of a larger picture:

It is not in our power to prevent a new person to get into gambling - for that every casino streamer/casino website/landbased casino would need to be shut down. You understand what I mean? I fully understand your concern about exposing people to gambling but in reality not much can be done about it without closing the whole casino industry down. If theoretically that could be achieved, tens of thousands people would be immediately unemployed, country BDP's would fall and so on. That's why there is UKGC and other regulators - to help people.

[DhvBonanza]

@Skylined87- you say, "I do believe they are all vocal when it comes to RG and are not encouraging people to deposit"

I'm sorry but the second part of that is plainly false.

Yes I do hear streamers talk about RG (some more than others) but ..... ALL of them encourage people to deposit otherwise they wouldn't advertise deposit bonuses on their streams with permalinks, now would they? What about the bots in stream constantly advertising huh?

The casinos badly want the streamers to influence the wider public because they know that streamers/celebrities/real people are actually better at promoting gambling and activities than the casinos themselves. The streamers of course as affiliates have perverse incentive structures - i.e. their "job" is to push people towards a particular casino or gaming group. They all do it. They all have their casinos that they are constantly pushing. The streamers want people to sign up to their casino and deposit so they get paid. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous. 

You say, "will you put the blame on the person that gave you the first cigarette?"

Yes actually I will because it was my brother and he started me smoking at like 12 years old so that I wouldn't tell my parents that he was smoking (he was 16). Yep I blame him for it and he acknowledges how shitty it was for him to do that. Now I have a lifelong addiction. Even when I stop smoking I am constantly thinking about it. We know from our experience that when you are gambling the same is also true - gambling pervades your thoughts on a daily basis. 

Alcohol? Meh I don't think that is bad because alcohol is good for the body and mind (in moderation). It's also been consumed since before written history and indeed some people think that beer was the catalyst that turned us from hunter-gatherers into agricultural masters. The story goes that tribes liked to meet up (e.g. around Stonehenge) and share information, find partners, that kind of thing. For these gatherings they liked beer. To get enough beer to give several tribes a drink at the same time, you need a lot of raw ingredients to make your beer. So communities settled permanently to grow stuff to make beer for the festivals and that's how we became an agricultural society, or so one version of the story goes

Anyway I don't wanna get into an extended argument with you because you seem like a smart guy and a nice guy. I think we are roughly on the same page. You say you wish you'd never set foot in a land-based casino (me too!) but this website kinda does encourage noobs and inexperienced gamblers to copy what they see on stream. I don't think that can be denied.

[Skylined87]

29 minutes ago, DhvBonanza said:

Anyway I don't wanna get into an extended argument with you because you seem like a smart guy and a nice guy. I think we are roughly on the same page. You say you wish you'd never set foot in a land-based casino (me too!) but this website kinda does encourage noobs and inexperienced gamblers to copy what they see on stream. I don't think that can be denied.

Knowledge is power here. People willingly (we do live in a free will world, don't we?) sign-up and decide to play. When they do that, they should also informed on how slot machines work and that they can expect to lose most of the times. Hence, the guides are there - to educate people about gambling and dangers of it. The more they know, less likely it is that they will spend amounts they cannot afford. 

Alcohol you say yourself is good in moderation. Why can't gambling be good in moderation as well? If you set your limits and a budget and enjoy your time playing slots (it is entertainment after all), how is that different from having a beer or two to have some fun - of course the more you drink, the worse you will feel (hangover, puking, passing out, going to emergency, acting violent) - just like with gambling, the more you deposit, the worse you will feel (being stressed, angry)?

But yeah, I can understand where your concerns are coming from, however it is something that needs to be approached from a different angle, because streamers and casinos are here to stay either you like it or not. Also thank you for keeping your replies constructive, I quite enjoy the debate  And I'm sure you realize we can turn around each other words (like I did with 2nd paragraph) for many more posts if we want to, simply because we have different views and beliefs. However, I can do an extra step here and you can tell me what would you do differently with the casino guides that we have now and I will do my best to see if something can be done regarding that.

[DhvBonanza]

@Skylined87- I read all of the content again and tbh most of it is excellent. I liked all the guides written by CG Staff, David and Reggie

I used a lot of words previously but didn't say what is important

There is a big difference between improving the gambling experience for existing gamblers (which this site/streams do well) and recruiting new gamblers. I would love to see an explicit health warning in red at the top of the Casino Guides section. CG Staff do mention the cocaine comparison and bad things that can happen with gambling but more needs to be done.

"Gambling on slots is like smoking. It is highly addictive and shouldn't be started by anyone. We at CG do not encourage anybody who has never gambled to start gambling......

If, however, you are an adult and already gamble, CG will help you maximise your fun by giving you the best information, deposit bonuses and playing potential. Always gamble responsibly and when the fun stops, stop!"

That's maybe too many words, IDK. 

I also think it would help to highlight how the streamers are doing. I know Nick talks about how he is doing from time to time. He was saying a few weeks ago that he was down about £5K for 2018. I think that changed in later streams but at least you know he's telling us he lost money over a long period and it sucks. Guys like Jorg at CT24 have bots give a recap of all the deposits and withdrawals during stream. For a long time he was doing bonus hunts and was losing, so it showed he had deposited £32K and withdrawn £24K or whatever. I know bandit shows his accounts on his streams and some of the losses are huge. Most people watch highlights videos, bonus hunts, weekly videos, not the really long streams. They don't see the grind and the losses. 

Streamers have a right to privacy and private gambling too but on the casinos they advertise and stream on, I think it's only fair to keep a record of how they are doing. Potential customers/followers should be able to see how it really is in terms of deposits and withdrawals for high volume players

[Skylined87]

@DhvBonanza I will take a look into it and see what we can come up with, but don't expect much in next 2 weeks as I'll be heading for vacation soon!