Streamers advantages & RTP/Big wins (another it's RIGGED thread)

[beetaillight]

That's exactly what i'm talking about, there is no line to cross. If there was no regulation at all, they would be cheating you 100% of the time. Regulation is the only thing which holds them at not going full bananas.

Remember, casinos and providers are both business operations which have 1 aim - to get people to deposit and eliminate the threat of withdrawals as much as they possibly can.

Regarding the masturbation thing, there are 2 things preventing that: 1. ACTUAL criminal laws which don't fall on some obscure regulatory but actual state laws and 2. planting cameras and blackmail is not their business and what they do and excel in. Gambling is.

For the last argument which seems to prevail for some reason: "if there is fraud, people would have heard it by now". First of all streaming slots in a scale where rigging RTP is actually beneficial is pretty new. Until a few years ago there was no need for this action as streaming at its infancy. Second of all, even if this sort of manipulation is done, I believe the number of employees that actually have access to the offending code is very limited. Add NDA to that, add possible lawsuit in case of breach and add the simple fact that there's no actual gain in revealing these secrets for these employees other than revenge possibly. Furthermore, it's not like going to CNN saying "casinos are cheating" or "slot providers are cheating" will actually raise any eyebrows, especially as gambing is illegal is many countries as it is.

Furthermore, as I said before, regulation is scarce at best and when dealing with regulation software, it's easy to dodge it. Furthermore, it's not like every version and every software patch is scrutinized by the regulator. They make audit every X time.

Edited 23 January, 2021 by beetaillight

[dirtystack]

You are talking about it like it is a fact again.

If you are so convinced then investigate. Do something about it. Uncover it and expose it. Go work for a slot provider and gather information. There is no amount of speculating that is going to uncover anything.

You should also read up on how NDA's actually work and when they are waived. An NDA is nothing outside the USA and their odd mentality. They mean nothing when the NDA is broken to expose something immoral, wrong, damaging.

You should contact and interact with the UKGC and maybe you would understand how rigid they are and how it is impossible to get any leeway with them.

You should also investigate how gambling actually works. 

Just coming up with excuses to dismiss anything that is against what you are saying, based on what you believe, well, it is certainly a waste of my time responding. There is nothing I can say which will change this sense that you have. If you are that convinced then do something about it as what you are currently doing serves no purpose. You are posing an idea and reinforcing it within yourself without any actual evidence or inside knowledge - this is normal human behaviour and I do it myself all the bloody time.

Casinos are not some big secret, there are no looser lips then those of the employees in the casino sector. Go and find out for sure, discover, gather presentable evidence. Then you would be doing something worthwhile. It's good to have a purpose, so make it your purpose, just don't get blinded by it and don't assume everyone who responds to you has an ulterior motive. 

 

 

Edited 23 January, 2021 by dirtystack

[Stevej]

@dirtystack Why always so negative? What’s the point of bringing masturbation to this conversation?

I’ve said this million times, and now underlining this is my opinion as there’s always somebody crying because of this: these things are more or less rigged. But it’s not that they would do something illegal, but it’s the gambling laws that are too soft.

I’m still asking if anybody knows where can I read about those laws? 
 

I also think it’s really important to have these ”it’s rigged” conversations. It adds some pressure to providers and casinos. Maybe, I mean maybe, it could change some day, but probably going to worse...

Edited 23 January, 2021 by Stevej

[dirtystack]

When looking for information, that is freely available to the public,  it is normally best to look in the public domain. 

try google

click a UKGC link and see where it leads you.

It’s partially why I get so annoyed as there is no effort put in by you guys, just speculation, and stroking each other to climax.

 

[beetaillight]

Unfortunately, I don't have resources to conduct a proper investigation as i'm working full time and a father to 2 small kids. Besides that, a proper investigation would require getting into code and will require the cooperation of one of the bigger streamers, which I doubt i'll get.

The whole point of my post is not to throw accusations in the air and contradicting what people comment. I base it solely on my experience from my playtime of over a year and watching streamers on a daily basis for that period which, mind you, is quite a bit of data collected and I have presented my data as far as I can.

The point of this debate is to give my speculation and numbers and hear what the good people of the forum has to offer. Since all posts were in the lines of "RTP is not manipulated, period" and "where's your proof", they added little information to my original question and resulted me in debunking what most of them wrote (quite easily I might add).

In the end, this is all in the realm of speculation. I have an advantage though - my theory cannot be disproven and can only be proven or weakened. Enough that one person comes forward from within the industry to prove my theory. The fact that this post had received over 1k views means that people do find it interesting and maybe someone can offer more concise proof either way.

[Stevej]

I found this one:

https://lawstrust.com/en/licence/gambling/rng-certificate
 

It’s difficult to find any clear info. What do they mean by:

”... Casinos, supporting policy of game honesty and transparency of payments, have standard generator settings (defined algorithm for generating random numbers), which give players a chance to win. However, some virtual rooms of gambling alter program code so that making profit from any kind of gaming machines by the client becomes impossible.”

What are these virtual rooms? Evolution gaming? Lol.

Edited 23 January, 2021 by Stevej

[Stevej]

Okey now I found something more interesting.

https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/Remote-gambling-and-software-technical-standards.pdf

I’ve seen more precise descriptions of certain laws. I mean, like this live dealer section, it leaves many things open. Obviously nobody cares.

”it iz what it iz...”

[dirtystack]

Stevej 

Last time.

This is Law Practice who will take care of the legal side of things when you are attempting to acquire an operating licence. 

Its like a Real Estate agent that you use to buy a house, they take care of the paperwork, they take your fee and give it to the seller, the seller gives the agent the deed to the property and pass that to you. It's all documented along the way and the Real Estate agent makes sure everything is signed and correct.

 

That paragraph, and that whole sites looks like it has been translated to English, from Russian,  via Google translate, is trying to convey the difference between a legitimate licenced casino and a rogue one. That there are honest casinos and dishonest casinos, that if you want to get a licence you need to be the honest version and that having said licence will convey to your customers that you can be trusted. It is trying to say that it is important you get RNG certified so people know you can be trusted. The English, is admittedly terrible on this site.

It's not really what you are looking for but, if you can find something similar with competently translated native language then you will learn something. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Stevej said:

Okey now I found something more interesting.

https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/Remote-gambling-and-software-technical-standards.pdf

I’ve seen more precise descriptions of certain laws. I mean, like this live dealer section, it leaves many things open. Obviously nobody cares.

”it iz what it iz...”

What you are looking at is JUST the technical standards, it is a very small part of the legislation. 

Keep looking though as you are on the right track.

Once you actually find some legit information to digest your response is "Obviously noone cares - it iz what it iz..."

And you wonder why I am hostile.

 

Edited 23 January, 2021 by dirtystack

[dirtystack]

My work here is done.

[olempiaps]

And this is why you can’t have an intellectual debate about anything these days. People are more worried about the size of theire balls then to just educate and share different point of views. 
 

None if you can prove if it’s rigged or not so just f***** leave it at that. 
Who is to say UKCG isn’t corrupt just as the big banks were which are 50 times bigger then a filthy casino industry. 

[dirtystack]

Maybe because the banks regulated themselves and the financial conduct authority didn't actually regulate banks. The bank sent them documents saying they are regulating themselves and not violating any laws and the FCA just signed that they have received that document and filed it away. The FCA didn't actually do anything prior to this financial crash you are citing/know nothing about.

 

I am not saying there isn't shit going on but you kids couldn't find your way to the bottom of a playground slide.

 

Edited 23 January, 2021 by dirtystack

[Stevej]

Well the thing is that as long as everything feels so shady in this business, new users just keep on posting these rigged posts. I mean it will never chance. They can do that. Just accept it.

I think it’s good. Conversation is good. Just leave your emotions out - and saying this to myself as well.

Maybe casinos could give their point of view, but obviously they don’t want to take part of the conversation.

Edited 23 January, 2021 by Stevej

[dirtystack]

 

20 minutes ago, Stevej said:

Maybe casinos could give their point of view, but obviously they don’t want to take part of the conversation.

I can state that Elizabeth ignored my affections in primary school, I can say she was really dismissive and had it out for me, I can't paint a picture of her as been cold and standoffish - the truth is I never got the courage to approach her, or try to engage her in anyway, because I was too wrapped up in my own self doubt and beliefs.

You can't state that they obviously don't want to take part when you have never made any legitimate attempt to involve casinos or elicit their feedback.

 

Edited 23 January, 2021 by dirtystack

[Stevej]

6 minutes ago, dirtystack said:

 

I can state that Elizabeth ignored my affections in primary school, I can say she was really dismissive and had it out for me, I can't paint a picture of her as been cold and standoffish - the truth is I never got the courage to approach her, or try to engage her in anyway, because I was too wrapped up in my own self doubt and beliefs.

You can't state that they obviously don't want to take part when you have never made any legitimate attempt to involve casinos or elicit their feedback.

 

Ask her out now?

[dirtystack]

Ah, it's funny how one little comment can make you warm to someone.

I wish I could, she was hella cute but a lifetime has passed and we are on opposite sides of the world.

Anyway, it's good to have things to lament now and then.

 

[olempiaps]

It’s funny that companies/producers/top management  in the tobacco industry still to this day deny that smoking kills and swear on everything they have that smoking is harmless. 
 

[dirtystack]

39 minutes ago, olempiaps said:

It’s funny that companies/producers/top management  in the tobacco industry still to this day deny that smoking kills and swear on everything they have that smoking is harmless. 
 

Debate won with a precision strike!

Not sure which debate.

 

 

 

Edited 23 January, 2021 by dirtystack

[beetaillight]

Thank you Steve for the information.

I don't know why @dirtystackis so worked up about this, I think it's great someone is actually looking into this matter in the seriousness it deserves. Usually when people are so adamant about something, they have an interest in it or they believe in it to the max, which obviously isn't the case, is it?

I do believe that getting legislation is more complex than the technical standards but as it were, I've been reading it a bit and it does leave a whole lot of room for manipulation. Nowhere does it say that the RTP is to remain constant between versions, or that a certain RTP algorithm must be the same for each user (maybe I missed something). All I read in the RTP part is that the player should be able to calculate the chances of winning which is like... duh. What does calculating the chances have to do with RTP. How can I translate 1:3000000 to hit max win or 1:200000 to hit 1000x to actual RTP settings and who's getting which RTP?

These types of loose definitions are exactly why the casino industry upholds its reputation. Everything is open for interpretation, all regulations are done on a basic level to see that the games aren't internally rigged somehow - like there is no way to get over 100x etc... but everything around that is 50 shades of grey.

I think these documents just go to show that not only it's possible to adjust RTP based on player, but there is no real legislation statements that say it's wrong (at least not from what I read).

If anyone else can read or provide more information to strengthen or contradict that, it would be be awesome.

Good job people is all I can say.

[dirtystack]

You have read a tiny fraction of it.

I could read the law stating I must wear a driving belt and then argue that it leave me a lot of room for manipulation. Nowhere in the laws regarding wearing a driving belt does it, for example say that I can't park my car, in a disabled spot.

SteveJ has sought out this information because I am here constantly contradicting him. I'm glad he is finally doing so.

I get worked up because people clueless about the legislation are prattling on, that this or that, is violating the legislation that they have no clue about.

I'm glad if you look into the legislation and point out holes, or see how it can be manipulated, based on your KNOWLEDGE of the legislation rather then your Ignorance of the legislation.

I hope you read more of it. There is not only the Gaming act and associated legislation relating to online operators but also a crossover with the non remote operations, there is also the codes of conduct and operating standards, which, while not technically laws are to be assumed as laws.

Continue reading and I'm just happy Stevej is investigating rather then just speculating.

Hopefully you will follow suit.

Those who can, teach lol

Edited 23 January, 2021 by dirtystack

[Stevej]

For some reason, one thing popped again into my mind. In 2017 there were few cases in Finland that celebrities recorded their Jackpot-winnings in video with their phones. I mean not only one but few cases, and everything happened at the end of the year 2017.

I’m asking you for real that do you guys really believe it’s all pure random accident that these celebrities with their busy lives

1) Play online slots

2) Win quite massive jackpots

3) Happen to record this video with the phone

Here is one of the videos: 

https://www.facebook.com/cristalsnow/videos/10155091900308716/

There’s also a guy called Riku Nieminen who won jackpot from the SAME casino one month earlier. You can google that.

I’m again trying to look at this business with my believing childish eyes, but it just doesn’t work for me. Sorry.

[Stevej]

To add to my previous message. Back then in 2017 online casino streamers weren’t that popular so casinos used celebrities to play these games.

Seriously speaking I believe this is the result when a casino can manipulate the winning odds massively to certain players. I don’t see any other option. Do you? Or at least it feels super shady. Why do these casinos want to be shady? That’s the whole reason of people writing these it’s rigged threads.
 

Maybe nowadays casinos wouldn’t do it that way because they know people are more aware these things. But it was different in 2017. Nowadays casinos use streamers and make it more transparent. And probably streamers don’t know that. Just my thought.

Edited 23 January, 2021 by Stevej

[olempiaps]

@dirtystack

Is for sure more knowledgeable on this topic then us, however not sure if i agree on how you go about this to be fair. 
If someone talks about something in the oil industry, am i right to belittle anything they say and mock them for my own entertainment Because i have worked on a oil rig and know everything better then them? And everyone is wrong only i am right? 
 

Sad to see this kind of behaviour from a grown man no offense. 

[Stevej]

6 minutes ago, olempiaps said:

@dirtystack

Is for sure more knowledgeable on this topic then us, however not sure if i agree on how you go about this to be fair. 
If someone talks about something in the oil industry, am i right to belittle anything they say and mock them for my own entertainment Because i have worked on a oil rig and know everything better then them? And everyone is wrong only i am right? 
 

Sad to see this kind of behaviour from a grown man no offense. 

Edit: Sorry, read wrong your post.

Edited 23 January, 2021 by Stevej

[beetaillight]

@Stevejgreat job mate. I must say I kinda laughed seeing that Yggdrassil bonus. I've played that game a while back for a few hundred spins and have seen maybe 1 diamond the whole time.

If this guy is indeed a celeb of some sort with a lot of watchers, that would make quite a show to watch. Maybe even deposit afterwards... You could say it's pure luck but I totally agree that it is suspicious to say the least.

People need to understand one thing about streamers. They do provide you with entertainment, but everything you're seeing on their streams are meant to get you, the viewer, to spend money. Be it the chair their using which they get for free, the video card or computer they're using and promoting or the casino they're playing at. Streams, nowdays are a part of a very lucrative industry of free or near free advertising and a great platform for providers to make money. They don't need to invest millions in commercials, they don't need to get the right celeb in and hire the best content creator to come up with a super appealing commercial. Advertising on Twitch or YT does cost and streamers do get paid quite a bit, but I would say substantially less than TV.

They have infinite airtime, millions of watchers with super high rating and thousands of agents (streamers) working for them. Problem is that conversion rate is much lower as they can't manipulate every second of the broadcast - so they need to adapt and find creative ways of getting you, the viewer's attention and ultimately, money. I think rigging RTP is just one means of doing so, maybe a bit more creative and extreme but it definitely falls in the category of "false advertisement" which we see from time to time on any other media.

Again, there are many streamers I enjoy watching and I think are 100% legit. However, this growing industry will lead to these kinds of advertisements and product manipulation due to the low cost of advertising and high appeal. It only makes sense that an industry so driven by money (in fact require deposits to stay alive) as gambling will come to these "creative" solutions faster than other industries.

Edited 24 January, 2021 by beetaillight

[beetaillight]

I just came across this article made by Hans-Martin on 2019 - https://casinogrounds.com/news/gambling/twitch-fake-streamers-viewbots/

If you haven't seen it, head over there. It's most interesting.