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Streamers advantages & RTP/Big wins (another it's RIGGED thread)


beetaillight

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So, i've been playing for over a year. Most of the time on a regular basis. Also, i'm watching slot streamers all the time (multiple at a time).

The conclusion I came to is that, it 3 words - everything is rigged. This is very general, I know, but let me explain.

Before I start, I would like to say that there are quite a few slot streamers which I like very much and this post has nothing to do with the entertainment value i'm getting from watching slot streamers.

I've read a lot of threads regarding buffed RTP for streamers and what I gathered from all is basically that most people don't get big hits (over 1000x) often as they see their favorite streamers do. The most common answer was that the hours spent by streamers + RNG is the reason for the seemingly high big hit ratio.

I agree, it does seem logic that more hours = more big wins.

I don't buy that though. I've seen streamers (which I love) like JamJar and Vaneo (Sacha) which play a few hours a day - not more than 3-4 hours a day. They are getting massive wins I would say at least a few times a month (you can watch their VODs to see yourself).

Seeing people's responses (playing a year, got 1000x once, etc..). and from my experience - my max win was x3000 once in about 15 months of daily 2-3 hour plays and i can say that I get hits like 1000x maybe once a month if that. Yesterday, I watch Daske (which I love as well) and they hit 1200-1400x twice on the same stream, 1 hour apart. Needless to say nothing like that ever happened to me. 

Some Numbers

Lets look at numbers a bit: I'm playing 2-3 hours a day (say 2.5), playing for 15 months - that's roughly 1125 hours. Since I keep my wins on excel I have the data, so I had 9 >1000x hits in that time period. so that makes it: one >1000x / 125 hours => one >1000x hit / 4 months. Regarding my favorite streamers: Some play roughly the same (JamJar, Sacha), some much more (CasinoDaddy, Classy, Daske, etc..). However if you take 10 hours a day of play and I'm sure you can agree that they get >1000x hit at least once a week. That would make it in 15 months, or 4500 hours - 60 >1000x hits. I'm quite sure the numbers are not way off. I can pull VODs and count hours and big hits but I think it's safe to say that streamers get more big hits per hour, regardless of the # of hours the pull each day. Period.

Of course you can always say: "you had a bad year", "streamers just hit blind luck", etc... I'm sure that if you took the real numbers and put them in a statistics software you would see that the population of streamers is different than the population of "regular gamblers" in the RTP aspect, meaning there is a clear advantage here.

Regarding the word RTP, i'm not sure it's even better RTP. Maybe it's the ability to hit big hits more often.

Why?

So the question is why... and the answer is very simple. Streamers, knowingly or unknowingly are agents of the casinos the promote. Not just in the fact that they actually promote them physically but also as virtual representatives of those casinos. How they play and the hits they get reflect on the casino itself. So, it makes sense that a casino will want to promote themselves by giving the "guy on the TV" an edge and show AMAZING 100K hits and not just 50x here and there.

How?

Regarding technical issues: I'm a developer and i've looked over the slot code on some casinos. The slot provider (Play'N'Go, Pragmatic, etc..) receive the user id of a player from the website from the casino (partner), where they probably do a handshake which retrieves user data from the casino, like balance, etc... to display on the slot. It's very simple to send the provider a "user type" which would get the provider's slot algorithm act accordingly and change the RTP, give them big hits every X spins or any such logic you can think of.

But isn't that cheating?

It is.. it's fraud. But what about regulations? People must understand, that casino regulation is VERY slim. Add to that the fact that it's a money driven eco-system and it's not exactly clean, you can imagine how providers (not all i'm sure) can implant RTP tweaking on their software and how casinos (not all i'm sure) can transmit data like "who's playing" to the provider. All it takes is a forbidden handshake like that and it means millions and billions from people who want to get that 100k hit but will probably never will.

Live games

One last matter. Live games. The ability to rig a live table is much much harder since in most cases there isn't a software involved. I believe this is a pretty big reason why casinos don't want you to play live games when you're getting a bonus. I mean, why would they not allow that overwise?

 

Thats it,

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

 

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You forgot one key thing though;

Casinos can not set RTP for individual players. They can choose RTP version (if game provider is offering more RTP versions) of a slot that they will be offering to their players but that's about as much they can do.

Casinos are front-end solution for content delivery (game providers). Game providers set the RTP of a slot which is tested by themselves, regulators and countries that have their own testing companies.

Above is a pure fact, no matter how hard you wish to believe that a single slot can be manipulated by the casino. The communication that occurs between casino and game provider is merely for unique ID of a player and balance / result of each spin. 

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Thanks for your reply.

Maybe you have information i'm unaware of. I don't know the exact data being transferred in the handshake between the casino and the provider. All i'm saying is that it's super simple to pass information from the casino to the provider regarding how the game should behave for this specific user.

"Game providers set the RTP of a slot which is tested by themselves, regulators and countries that have their own testing companies."

Here again, you're making an assumption that the providers have a "clean" code since they are regulated. I've worked in the binary options space as a technology providers to brokers which are basically casinos, so I know things work in that space:

1. Providers can choose to give regulated casinos a regulated version of their slots and give unregulated version of their slots to unregulated casinos.

2. When you're dealing with unregulated casinos or lightly regulated ones, they can get any type of slot software from providers and i'm pretty sure regulation fails there.

3. You assume casino regulations are done properly in a world filled with billions of dollars? There is a reason why casinos and gambling is outlawed in so many countries - it's a heavily unregulated space and the clients have a high risk of being frauded by casinos so it makes more sense to ban gambling than try to regulate such a space.

"Above is a pure fact, no matter how hard you wish to believe that a single slot can be manipulated by the casino. The communication that occurs between casino and game provider is merely for unique ID of a player and balance / result of each spin. "

Again, who says the communication is merely for unique id and balance/result? do you know the code of all providers? do you know all the APIs that are used? I think it's abit presumptuous to say that.

 

I remain unconvinced.

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@Slotspinnernot to sound like an ass, but in your case and many other good streamers, I don't think you're aware of any manipulations done on your behalf. Once your casino passes your streamer user id, only the provider knows what is actually done on the slots regarding your RTP.

Try playing with a regular user id and not your streamer id for a while in a casino and let me know if you're getting the same outcome as your streamer user does. That would be interesting :)

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1 minute ago, beetaillight said:

@Slotspinnernot to sound like an ass, but in your case and many other good streamers, I don't think you're aware of any manipulations done on your behalf. Once your casino passes your streamer user id, only the provider knows what is actually done on the slots regarding your RTP.

Try playing with a regular user id and not your streamer id for a while in a casino and let me know if you're getting the same outcome as your streamer user does. That would be interesting :)

before i became a streamer i hit 1000x+ many times aswell, its not like i started playing slots the same time i was streaming

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I understand and i've hit 1000x around 10 times in a year. I'm not saying you cant have big hits.. i'm talking about frequency. The numbers don't make sense, at least for me. comparing big hits per hour for any of the top streamers vs. my own it seems like a different ball game.

How many >1000x hits did you get the past 3 months? if the answer is more than 3 then we're obviously not on the same playing ground.

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1 hour ago, beetaillight said:

Thanks for your reply.

Maybe you have information i'm unaware of. I don't know the exact data being transferred in the handshake between the casino and the provider. All i'm saying is that it's super simple to pass information from the casino to the provider regarding how the game should behave for this specific user.

"Game providers set the RTP of a slot which is tested by themselves, regulators and countries that have their own testing companies."

Here again, you're making an assumption that the providers have a "clean" code since they are regulated. I've worked in the binary options space as a technology providers to brokers which are basically casinos, so I know things work in that space:

1. Providers can choose to give regulated casinos a regulated version of their slots and give unregulated version of their slots to unregulated casinos.

2. When you're dealing with unregulated casinos or lightly regulated ones, they can get any type of slot software from providers and i'm pretty sure regulation fails there.

3. You assume casino regulations are done properly in a world filled with billions of dollars? There is a reason why casinos and gambling is outlawed in so many countries - it's a heavily unregulated space and the clients have a high risk of being frauded by casinos so it makes more sense to ban gambling than try to regulate such a space.

"Above is a pure fact, no matter how hard you wish to believe that a single slot can be manipulated by the casino. The communication that occurs between casino and game provider is merely for unique ID of a player and balance / result of each spin. "

Again, who says the communication is merely for unique id and balance/result? do you know the code of all providers? do you know all the APIs that are used? I think it's abit presumptuous to say that.

 

I remain unconvinced.

1. Wrong. Casinos can only choose which RTP version they will use from provider (i.e. 91%, 94%, 96%), not all providers offer this, there is about 5 game providers that do so at the moment.
Another thing is if casino is using pirated versions of the games, which would make them eligible to host the games on their own and meddle with the RTP / outcome, but fortunately there is not so many around.

2. Again, game providers will offer them games should they agree. Prior to any game release, games have to be tested. Remember, game providers need a license too in order to operate. Most of them are with MGA and it's MGA's duty to test each slot release prior to the global release. No test, no release. Should game provider ignore that, they could quickly shut down the business due to heavy fines issued on them.

3. Agree that lot's of casinos out there are shady or not properly regulated. But the point of your post was that the outcome of a game was manipulated by casino - which is what we're at debate here. And that is something casinos can't do.

Believe me when I write that there is no personally identifiable information transferred between casino and the game provider when the player hits the spin button. Feel free to investigate matter on your own if you choose not to believe me. And I do know the inner-workings of the slots and what data is being transferred - I have seen it live and I have seen it reverse-engineered.

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Casinos don't want you to play live games/lower the wagering percent on live games because the house advantage on live games is a lot lower then the average 5% advantage the house has on slots.

Roulette has a house advantage of 2.7% which, if the bonus on roulette had 35x wagering, would actually make it so you are playing roulette with a slight advantage over the house. You would, on average, make £5.50 profit per £100 bonus you have with a 35x wager. (£3500 wagered at 2.7% house advantage =£94.50 spent whilst clearing the wagering = £5.50 profit)

On Blackjack it is even more pronounced as, if you play basic strategy, the house advantage is around 1%. If you were playing basic strategy with a bonus with 35x wagering requirement then you would have a big advantage over the house. (an average of £65 profit per £100 bonus with 35x wagering)

It's fine to speculate, investigate and seek more information but you can't draw conclusions and make assertions when it might be your ignorance which is pointing you in a specific direction. You also need to bear in mind that the conviction you feel, and I feel the same thing very often, is heavily influenced by your recent results.

Sometimes I watch a streamer and I'm like: 

"oh, they are playing a new game, I wonder if they will hit a 1000x"

"oh, that's nice, they hit a 3000x"

"On a Quickspin game....."

Then they never touch the game again because it "never pays"

Gets me speculating like mad.

 

 

 

Edited by dirtystack
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2 hours ago, Skylined87 said:

1. Wrong. Casinos can only choose which RTP version they will use from provider (i.e. 91%, 94%, 96%), not all providers offer this, there is about 5 game providers that do so at the moment.
Another thing is if casino is using pirated versions of the games, which would make them eligible to host the games on their own and meddle with the RTP / outcome, but fortunately there is not so many around.

2. Again, game providers will offer them games should they agree. Prior to any game release, games have to be tested. Remember, game providers need a license too in order to operate. Most of them are with MGA and it's MGA's duty to test each slot release prior to the global release. No test, no release. Should game provider ignore that, they could quickly shut down the business due to heavy fines issued on them.

3. Agree that lot's of casinos out there are shady or not properly regulated. But the point of your post was that the outcome of a game was manipulated by casino - which is what we're at debate here. And that is something casinos can't do.

Believe me when I write that there is no personally identifiable information transferred between casino and the game provider when the player hits the spin button. Feel free to investigate matter on your own if you choose not to believe me. And I do know the inner-workings of the slots and what data is being transferred - I have seen it live and I have seen it reverse-engineered.

1. This type of opening for "legitimate RTP manipulation" can go all kinds of places. Is it possible for all players to get the 94% version, while streamers get the 120% RTP version? I mean, it's entirely possible that when a streamer logs in and clicks on play on Book of Dead, they get to a page which loads the 120% version and not the regular 94%. This is easily manipulated on the casino's side.

2. I agree that MGA has their cut out for them and it is a risk for messing with game manipulation. That being said, as a software developer and team leader I know how versions are working and deployments to clients etc... it's easy to deploy different versions on different environments while keeping other environments legit for the regulator's inspection.

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I don't know why this is a big deal. I hit really big four times last year. I always take regular long breaks, and always seems to hit big when I return to the slots. Make sure to always play on casinos with best RTP. I deposited 4500€ and cashed out 12k in total last year. Slots is all about luck and smartness while playing. Quit games early when they seems cold. 🙂 

Edited by weimaren87
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Streamers don't get higher RTP, however if they use deposit bonuses ALL the time they have a positive expected value, hence will beat the house in the long run. I was better last year with using deposit bonuses, still only slight profit for the year as I go quite a bit of cash deposits. Was a good profit overall though as we ran good off stream (without bonuses) my like top 5 biggest wins of the year was off stream (all in DoA 2) which is pure luck.

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2 hours ago, weimaren87 said:

I don't know why this is a big deal. I hit really big four times last year. I always take regular long breaks, and always seems to hit big when I return to the slots. Make sure to always play on casinos with best RTP. I deposited 4500€ and cashed out 12k in total last year. Slots is all about luck and smartness while playing. Quit games early when they seems cold. 🙂 

Nothing from what you wrote represents what i'm talking about. You mentioned 4 big hits in a year which only makes my point stronger. Streamers usually get at least 4 big hits in a month or two. There is no strategy, what you describe is just luck.

2 hours ago, LetsGiveItASpin said:

Streamers don't get higher RTP, however if they use deposit bonuses ALL the time they have a positive expected value, hence will beat the house in the long run. I was better last year with using deposit bonuses, still only slight profit for the year as I go quite a bit of cash deposits. Was a good profit overall though as we ran good off stream (without bonuses) my like top 5 biggest wins of the year was off stream (all in DoA 2) which is pure luck.

I understand that some of the EV comes from the actual deposit bonuses as you're basically getting more spins for the same buck sort of speak.

The point is that if I compare your 10K or 100K spins with mine or any regular user's 10K or 100K spins, your actual value would be significantly higher or at least you'll get substantially more "big hits". The facts are splatered across an infinite number of TTV VODs and youtube videos. It's pretty to see that the sheer number of big hits there in a short time span compared to a daily "casual" gambler involves more than luck or number of spins.

As I said before, I don't think streamers are actually aware of what's going on behind the scenes a lot of times. I mean, if I was a casino and I had "bought" advertising space on a big streamer's TV, the first thing i'd do is make it look as if my casino gives you 1k-2kx hits at least once a week. What better way is there to promote my casino?

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17 minutes ago, beetaillight said:

Nothing from what you wrote represents what i'm talking about. You mentioned 4 big hits in a year which only makes my point stronger. Streamers usually get at least 4 big hits in a month or two. There is no strategy, what you describe is just luck.

I understand that some of the EV comes from the actual deposit bonuses as you're basically getting more spins for the same buck sort of speak.

The point is that if I compare your 10K or 100K spins with mine or any regular user's 10K or 100K spins, your actual value would be significantly higher or at least you'll get substantially more "big hits". The facts are splatered across an infinite number of TTV VODs and youtube videos. It's pretty to see that the sheer number of big hits there in a short time span compared to a daily "casual" gambler involves more than luck or number of spins.

As I said before, I don't think streamers are actually aware of what's going on behind the scenes a lot of times. I mean, if I was a casino and I had "bought" advertising space on a big streamer's TV, the first thing i'd do is make it look as if my casino gives you 1k-2kx hits at least once a week. What better way is there to promote my casino?

I played casino only in 7 of 12 months last year, and deposited not every week in those months either. Maybe 2-3 deposits in the weeks I played. Stating the way you do is crazy. They don`t rig RTP.. Streamers deposit and play alot. They have a edge over houses with the deposit bonuses that helps them to hit those big hits now and then.

We just hope to hit big without bonuses. In November I bought 50 bonuses on Doa2 without any win. In mid December I did one and hit 14500x on it. It`s all about luck. I have played for 15 years, and last year was my only profit one. I tried a different strategy that worked for me.

To me it sounds you have a bit off a gambling problem.. Who playes 2-3 yours every day?? Usually problem gamblers. 

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RNG or not at the end of the day it’s all about LUCK. For bad or good. Like the guy that has won the million lottery several times, or the guy that was hit by lightning 7 times in a day. 
 

You underestimate how much a deposit bonus can do. I was a VIP at Wildz casino receiving 5x deposit bonuses a month that was no sticky+ other benefits. I managed to turnover a hefty profit for 2020 and they just recently sent me a email saying they no longer want me to play at theyre casino lol. I’m a regular player, no streamer RTP

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Streamers have an advantage with the deposit bonus that is higher then the average citizen gets...

So in the long run the streamer have more play time...

And luck is a major aspect.

The legit streamers can have major losses too in the end of the day but streaming is an income aswell i believe..

And casino games can be experienced as (rigged) when loosing, but if someone wins you dont hear a word.....

Edited by Ruthless69
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I also think slots are not rigged (...maybe). They’re just well designed good software with good mathematics included there.

But also as being a software engineer, I know what I can do with the code. How on earth you could prove that my software is not having any ”rigged code”? I can do an online slot that can run 2 million spins providing certain rtp and also give certain advantages to certain players or give bonus to every 5th player during the first 20 spins when they’re playing or what ever you want, just tell me. It would be super easy to include. You can’t see that code. Does MGA go through the code? No, I don’t think so.
 

I mean it’s tough business to game designers/casinos as well. If you rig the game, you can manipulate the players. 
 

Can I read about the laws that have been accepted to rng’s or slots? Is there any specific info about that? What is accepted and what is not when designing casino games?

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25 minutes ago, Stevej said:

Can I read about the laws that have been accepted to rng’s or slots? Is there any specific info about that? What is accepted and what is not when designing casino games?

There is not much easily readable stuff out there for the public, but you might want to browse through the 'ask me anything' thread of user and slot development insider 'TranceMonkey'  at the casinomeister website.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/ask-me-anything-about-slots.77569/

Edited by vanHooff
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26 minutes ago, Stevej said:

I also think slots are not rigged (...maybe). They’re just well designed good software with good mathematics included there.

But also as being a software engineer, I know what I can do with the code. How on earth you could prove that my software is not having any ”rigged code”? I can do an online slot that can run 2 million spins providing certain rtp and also give certain advantages to certain players or give bonus to every 5th player during the first 20 spins when they’re playing or what ever you want, just tell me. It would be super easy to include. You can’t see that code. Does MGA go through the code? No, I don’t think so.
 

I mean it’s tough business to game designers/casinos as well. If you rig the game, you can manipulate the players. 
 

Can I read about the laws that have been accepted to rng’s or slots? Is there any specific info about that? What is accepted and what is not when designing casino games?

from what i heard from game providers, the code is being fully looked through and not allowed to be changed after stamping on the license (for the payouts)

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Lets take PlaynGo - lets say they were manipulating their games and not running them consistent with the versions that went through testing.

We don't know enough about anything to display or prove anything.

But Netent would. I'm sure they would love to expose PlaynGo's shenanigans and get all their games banned, reclaiming the number 1 slot provider title. 

There is no gentlemen's agreement between these companies, no "I won't tell on you if you don't tell on me" arrangement.

How much do you think Netent would be willing to pay a PlaynGo employee for this information? Millions? hundreds of thousands? Some software coder would spill the beans in a heartbeat.

Edited by dirtystack
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