Play and go rigged?

[The Reel Story]

1 hour ago, chiefemptybottle said:

Actually they do, there's one famous comment to data on 2+2: If its random, how come scatters always make it below the line, or just above in a "tease" setup? - How come premiums suddenly stop appearing in a bonus when hit? - How come when you play 3 or 1 line in a 10 (or more) line game the big wins hit on a non paying line? etc etc - So, they do ACTIVELY work against you. A majority of the casinos "lie" about the real RTP (e.g Leovegas) who write BOD to 96.xx but actually are the lowest possible on PnG 92.xx. (The Casino's can decide this themselves on Play'n'Go machines, but with a fixed minimum).

I dont even think you understand what semantics mean? You can't use the term in a casino debate. The term are used a lot in hyped intellectual conversations, but people docent seem to know what it actually mean. Rigged is the word to use, since casino's are "deliberately" fixed. There's no such thing as "random" since the generated "random number" go through filters that destroy the random in itself totally.

The only thing that must be accurate is the symbols displayed. Symbols above and below the winning area can be whatever the game developer wants. Some providers are lazy and just randomize the symbols above and below the winning area, meaning you often see scatters there, even though they would never hit. It's annoying, but not rigged and not illegal.

It's also very common for games to change reel sets when moving to a bonus round, so you will indeed see different quantities of symbols (see my threads about Danger! High Voltage and Lil' Devil). Again, this is standard and not illegal. It's also still random.

So no, games do not 'actively' work against you. They passively do by virtue of their math models and their reel setups.

Casino's in regulated markets do not lie about the real RTP. In fact, they can't. They have to report real RTP vs TRTP and if there is a divergence the game and casino gets investigated by the UKGC. If you believe there is a Casino that is breaking the law here, report them to the UKGC with your evidence and they will be investigated and lose their license.

As I wrote above, the Casino can NOT decide what RTP they want to set for Play N Go games. Play N Go produce multiple RTP versions of their games (so they might do a 92%, 94% and 96% version), the casino then chooses the one they buy. Once bought and placed on the site, the RTP must be displayed and reported on as above. They cannot change to another RTP version without going through testing and regulatory approval.

Semantics: The branch of linguistics related to the meaning of words. Your meaning of 'Rigged' differed to my meaning of 'Rigged', therefore, Semantics. Casino's are not 'deliberately' fixed. They rely on the maths and odds of games to return them a specific margin. Some months a game will lose money, some months it will make money. Overall, it makes money because of statistics.

Of course it's random and it's independently tested and accredited to be so. Just because you transform a random number into a specific range to suit the game you need (I.E, into a stop position on a reel with 150 symbols) does not make it any less random.

[dirtystack]

Leave it, he can't even provide a link to the discussion on 2+2 with all the information he claims, implying a group community effort, to have analysed. 

Edited 15 December, 2019 by dirtystack

[RespG40]

If you had just stated that Play and Go are robbing piles of crap in the main I would believe it more. RTP differences of 1 or 2 % mean actually very little over say 100 spins. Over 1000000000 spins yes you will see it.

[apudekikker]

On 15/12/2019 at 21:38, RespG40 said:

If you had just stated that Play and Go are robbing piles of crap in the main I would believe it more. RTP differences of 1 or 2 % mean actually very little over say 100 spins. Over 1000000000 spins yes you will see it.

The difference between 98% and 96% is HUGE, it literally halves your playtime. How?

98% RTP = 2% house edge

96% RTP = 4% house edge

It's literally a difference of 50%

[RespG40]

5 hours ago, apudekikker said:

The difference between 98% and 96% is HUGE, it literally halves your playtime. How?

98% RTP = 2% house edge

96% RTP = 4% house edge

It's literally a difference of 50%

Over how many spins is the point? You won't see it after 100 spins is what I am saying. Over billions and billions of spins that will be the RTP, doesn't really make the game play much different.

[apudekikker]

 

5 hours ago, RespG40 said:

Over how many spins is the point? You won't see it after 100 spins is what I am saying. Over billions and billions of spins that will be the RTP, doesn't really make the game play much different.

It makes a disgustingly big difference.

Assuming you have €100, and spin at €1, you will be able to do on AVERAGE 4951 spins at 98% RTP before the balance reaches 0.

On 96% RTP this average totals to 2476 spins.

You clearly have no idea how RTP works, no offense, but the 'billions of spins' only applies to accurately calculating the average, it does NOT mean that you will only see a difference after a billion spins. Attached is a chart for your convenience.

 

Again, on average starting with 100x stake balance:

98% RTP = 4951 spins

96% RTP = 2476 spins

You don't need a billion spins to feel that difference bro. Pay attention to RTP.

 

Edited 22 January, 2020 by apudekikker

[RespG40]

27 minutes ago, apudekikker said:

 

It makes a disgustingly big difference.

Assuming you have €100, and spin at €1, you will be able to do on AVERAGE 4951 spins at 98% RTP before the balance reaches 0.

On 96% RTP this average totals to 2476 spins.

You clearly have no idea how RTP works, no offense, but the 'billions of spins' only applies to accurately calculating the average, it does NOT mean that you will only see a difference after a billion spins. Attached is a chart for your convenience.

 

Again, on average starting with 100x stake balance:

98% RTP = 4951 spins

96% RTP = 2476 spins

You don't need a billion spins to feel that difference bro. Pay attention to RTP.

 

What a load of absolute nonsense. No game will be close to its RTP after that many spins.

I'll give you my videoslots screens as an example of this.

During those spins you mention you could hit a huge win at any point rendering anything above completely meaningless. This is what you have left out. Winning spins are not taken into account in your calculation. Remember it's based on RNG. The percentages vary massively but overall the game is designed, eventually, to reach its RTP. It might give 700% to one player and 10% to another. 

 

 

[apudekikker]

3 minutes ago, RespG40 said:

What a load of absolute nonsense. Blablablablabla

 

 

Do you know what the word average means? You're embarrassing yourself mate.

Edited 22 January, 2020 by apudekikker

[Modnationx]

[asmeister]

150 rounds on book of dead and no bonus???!!! THE HUMANITY!

[dirtystack]

I don’t think you guys really disagree with each other, you both know 98% rtp would enable your bankroll to last, on average, twice as long if you spin for a prolonged amount of time, compared to the 96% version of the same game.

Resp40 has just taken an extreme vantage point to take the stance that it isn’t noticeable from a players perspective if it is over a short amount of spins. He has chosen 100 as his figure and done 1650 spins to show that short term the effect isn’t noticeable. He isn’t wrong except in his assertion that it would take billions of spins to see an average.

if he took his stance to the extreme it could be that there is no noticeable difference for a singular player who only played 1 spin.

it takes many spins for the average to be observed,

billions?

No

100 000+
Normally levels out to the advertised rtp but I’ve had times during “most spins” tournaments where I have done over 300 000 spins and been running at 84% rtp on games with 96% rtp.

And also the opposite, my rtp is over 100% on jamming jars for example with several hundred thousand spins.

 

Edited 22 January, 2020 by dirtystack

[dirtystack]

Just to add, and make people feel better, just had another £7-£10 betsize Reactoonz session and lost another £2500 -  taking my total losses at the £7 - £10 betsize to £15 000

The amount of Garga I have had in £15 000 at £7-£10 betsize?

zero, nilch, nada, not a single one.

Over many casinos, Unibet, Kindred, Dunder, 21casino, Casilando, Slottyvegas, amongst others.

Pretty much everything I won from the Dunder and Slotty vegas promos, 5k and 10k respectively.

 

 

Edited 24 January, 2020 by dirtystack
Overestimated my total losses a bit so recounted, emotional state etcetc

[dirtystack]

Played the rizk race, 500 spins at £0.40

Went as expected

Start £502.84 

End after 500 spins - £200 worth of spins, £394.28

Rtp 45.72%

Wins over 10x = 1

Largest win - £4.60

Gargas = 0

[Modnationx]

I used to play book of dead alot because I had over 50 screenshots of me getting fullscreen with all different symbols, now tho I don't get bonus as much as a year ago, but rigged? Nah it's just bad luck or they changed it abit, that I can say is noticable. 

I think but correct me if Im wrong, I do think the company are afraid of rigging something when all their income are from these slots, mabey rigg was a thing back in the days when people didn't know much about it, but nowdays people can spot rigg a mile away and if they had evidence, it would hurt these companys alot. Why rigg something when they profit from it is my take on it?

[chainy]

On 25/10/2019 at 00:41, The Reel Story said:

As Skyline said, most games will switch up the reel sets when going in to a bonus. 

 

And bonuses are not 'pre-determined' in the way you state. They don't pick a x win and then show you a result that matches. The bonus reel sets are used, 10+ spins are made and you get the result. Often all 10 spins are played on the server up front (after you click spin) but that doesn't make it any less random. 

Your comment about 'if slots were 100% random, casinos would die' is just a misunderstanding of how slots work. Slots hare a mathematical model behind them that makes it so that, statistically, they will pay out less than 100%. This mathematical model is determined by the setup of the reels and the payouts. It ia still completely random what result occurs. 

As an example. If i flip a coin and pay you 1 for heads and 2 for tails, you will get a certain return. If i then change the payout to 0.5 for heads and 1 for tails, you can expect a lower return. The odds of getting heads or tails is still random and 50/50 in both scenarios though. 

As for the 'collect losses period'. No. Not the case. Not legal and probably not even possible. Slots already have the mathematical edge. No need to rig them. 

you say it is random how do you know how it is programmed people do not know what they are talking about , the slots do not work as every spin is random if the slot is set to not pay you will not hit if it is ready to pay you will win but the latest is very very rare to hit big.so for ex. i played the green knight when it was new i hit freespins it went up to 100x some weeks later completely stonedead try day after days still dead . no bonus and lowest possible multiplayer. so random never.its programmed how tom pay all calculated from providers experts psycological and mathemathicans all to earn so much money they can .they dont let anything go random never .they have programmed their profit and not let any big wins you hit around 10x to 100x  to not hit payout balance in the casino.maybe they have some ip tracking in their servers to not pay big on some ip adresses ,who knows .but random it is not 100% sure about that.its the same old record when you play slot you can hit freespin on first spin or you can press the button till your balance is 0. many many times hit freespins on 1st spin is that random no it is not you open a cam e and it is ready to give a freespin  or you open a slot and you will not see the freespin because the slot is set to give the freespin. so what do the rtp say ,the slot knows what to pay is that random?? not in my world .do they check statistics when the have so controlled slots ? why do the slot pay just that month to many players and just eat from every player month after...no one check that.

[powerdrivencanada]

Rigged!... probably not... just a bad run buds

[lukjee]

Yeah, PlaynGo can be dangerous. BadLuck :/

[Modnationx]

Book of dead is a game I play alot, and others can agree that 150+ spins is normal without a bonus. Sometimes you are lucky Sometimes not, the casino is made for entertainment not to make someone profit daily, remember that.

 

Anyone who can't handle losses shouldn't be playing...invest or save your money if that's the case.

[The Reel Story]

On 03/06/2021 at 20:22, chainy said:

you say it is random how do you know how it is programmed people do not know what they are talking about , the slots do not work as every spin is random if the slot is set to not pay you will not hit if it is ready to pay you will win but the latest is very very rare to hit big.so for ex. i played the green knight when it was new i hit freespins it went up to 100x some weeks later completely stonedead try day after days still dead . no bonus and lowest possible multiplayer. so random never.its programmed how tom pay all calculated from providers experts psycological and mathemathicans all to earn so much money they can .they dont let anything go random never .they have programmed their profit and not let any big wins you hit around 10x to 100x  to not hit payout balance in the casino.maybe they have some ip tracking in their servers to not pay big on some ip adresses ,who knows .but random it is not 100% sure about that.its the same old record when you play slot you can hit freespin on first spin or you can press the button till your balance is 0. many many times hit freespins on 1st spin is that random no it is not you open a cam e and it is ready to give a freespin  or you open a slot and you will not see the freespin because the slot is set to give the freespin. so what do the rtp say ,the slot knows what to pay is that random?? not in my world .do they check statistics when the have so controlled slots ? why do the slot pay just that month to many players and just eat from every player month after...no one check that.

God this  was hard to  read. Please learn how to write. Grammar and punctuation are your friend.

Anyway, I know because I used to make these games for a living. All of the stuff you described is complex and unnecessary when a slot is already designed to a profitable RTP value and works perfectly well based on mathematics and statistics.

Just because something is random, doesn't mean it isn't controlled. That is what the rules are for (in this instance, the symbols, the payout values of those symbols etc.

As an example, lets say you and I play a game. I roll a dice. On a 5 or a 6, I pay you £1, on a 1, 2, 3 or 4, you pay me £1. You will win 1/3 of the time, I will win 2/3 of the time. Overall you will lose. Are you going to tell me the dice is rigged? No, you know you are losing because the rules are in my favour. That is how slots work.

As always the simple argument against rigging is that it isn't necessary. A lot of cost, risk and effort for very little reward.

 

[Modnationx]

1 hour ago, The Reel Story said:

Please learn how to write

See this is just retarded shit, why do you attack people for not been able to write, it's people like you I wish i met irl, just to punch that little karen face of yours. Have a great day Regards 👊.

[The Reel Story]

1 hour ago, Modnationx said:

See this is just retarded shit, why do you attack people for not been able to write, it's people like you I wish i met irl, just to punch that little karen face of yours. Have a great day Regards 👊.

If you think that was 'attacking' then I think you may be snowflaking a little.

As for why, they're on a forum. The method of communication is writing. If you want people to understand what you're trying to say easily, then you need to be able to write. It's 2021, with spell and grammar checkers, I'm not sure anyone has an excuse for not being able to write.

I also appreciate English may not be peoples first languages, but all languages have grammar, all have largely the same formatting. All have paragraphs and line breaks and most have capital letters. I have no problem if someone writes in broken English due to being a second language, but writing in such a way that makes it, literally, difficult to read because there is zero effort put in to the basics of universal formatting, then I'm gonna ask that they do better.

[Slot Lover]

In my own small sample size (relative to a billion spins 😃) I can only say that I never had as much bonuses pay 1x to 10x on Play N Go slots compared to other providers.

I sometimes put EUR 100 at stake for minbet spins to see what happens. Rarely I go to zero in a straight line. With Play N Go I did on 3 different slots when they had multiplier tournament. I did hit plenty of bonuses, but none of them bigger than an average good base win.

My conclusion: Play N Go is not xtreme volatile. They are 'Affen Titten Turbo Geil Mega Super Extreme Over the Top Absurdly Krankjorum Riskongettinginsaneaftera1000spins' volatile. They should come up with a nice word for that kind of volatility.

So whenever I see Play N Go I know this, and will not keep playing to get that big hit. As it might not come in 'a billion minus a few thousand' spins. As for many other providers the hits come a little more frequent so to me they are more fun playing as even with a smaller sample size than 1 billion spins you might actually get a nice hit here and there.

That their games don't have a 250.000x max payout surprises me, as I guess more and more gamblers who enjoy their slot playing will limit their spendings on Play N Go. At least their name is already a little alarm bell by now.

I still will play their games, but just know their volatility isn't fun.

[Modnationx]

On 05/06/2021 at 20:07, The Reel Story said:

If you think that was 'attacking' then I think you may be snowflaking a little.

As for why, they're on a forum. The method of communication is writing. If you want people to understand what you're trying to say easily, then you need to be able to write. It's 2021, with spell and grammar checkers, I'm not sure anyone has an excuse for not being able to write.

I also appreciate English may not be peoples first languages, but all languages have grammar, all have largely the same formatting. All have paragraphs and line breaks and most have capital letters. I have no problem if someone writes in broken English due to being a second language, but writing in such a way that makes it, literally, difficult to read because there is zero effort put in to the basics of universal formatting, then I'm gonna ask that they do better.

See you will never understand how hard something can be when you never experienced it. So yes there is a reason why people spell wrong, and it's not an excuse, but again that's something you will never understand.

[vanHooff]

50 minutes ago, Slot Lover said:

In my own small sample size (relative to a billion spins 😃) I can only say that I never had as much bonuses pay 1x to 10x on Play N Go slots compared to other providers.

I still will play their games, but just know their volatility isn't fun.

I think I read on another forum that for games that are licensed for Germany, the casino/provider must publish how often the max win hits.
Guy who posted that provided some examples from different games and providers.

 

[Brad Isaac]

Dude, it’s a pity you lost so much without experiencing a winner’s moment! Unfortunately, it happens to many gamblers. Just keep deposits under control and thus you will minimize any risk. Good luck with other games or other casinos!