To what extent are slot predetermined?

[dirtystack]

Regarding games with gamble feature.

 

It just rerolls  the rng when you press gamble.

 

For it to do otherwise and that it pays the same as it intended to when triggering the bonus doesn't make much sense to me as it would imply that even if you lose the gamble and do 0 spins you should still get the same payout as if you did 8, 16, 20 or 24 spins.

 

There is most likely some quite complex math behind these games, dynamic RNG and RTP that only overall has to come in line with the stated figures. It doesn't have to line up for everyone. 

 

We see what we want to see and are always on the lookout for anything that confirms our suspicions.

 

Also dragons fire has no gamble feature and of course its predetermined what you will get for the bonus, its how slots work, you bet, they pick a number and show you a visual representation that correlates to that number. 

[dirtystack]

I don't know, I get a bit annoyed by these observations of a singular persons experience passed off as fact.

I've seen a ghost, in jogging gear, chased after me on a stormy night as I was walking through a park near a lake.

If anyone is so suspicious of the gambling industry then they owe it to themselves to study mathematics and programming, get a job working for BGT or whomever and expose them, here on the forum, with facts and figures. Free the people from the tyranny of the slot providers.

Lack of conviction?

[Aviad]

9 hours ago, dirtystack said:

Regarding games with gamble feature.

 

It just rerolls  the rng when you press gamble.

 

For it to do otherwise and that it pays the same as it intended to when triggering the bonus doesn't make much sense to me as it would imply that even if you lose the gamble and do 0 spins you should still get the same payout as if you did 8, 16, 20 or 24 spins.

 

There is most likely some quite complex math behind these games, dynamic RNG and RTP that only overall has to come in line with the stated figures. It doesn't have to line up for everyone. 

 

We see what we want to see and are always on the lookout for anything that confirms our suspicions.

 

Also dragons fire has no gamble feature and of course its predetermined what you will get for the bonus, its how slots work, you bet, they pick a number and show you a visual representation that correlates to that number. 

Exactly that.. you can choose not to gamble and get zero wins in your 8 spins the same as if you would gamble and loose the gamble to zero spins... 

[dirtystack]

I've been paid 0 in 8 spins once. 

It would have to happen 50% of the time that you took 8 spins if it worked they way you think.

[Guest]

Have to concur with some on here on the gamble features. Will use Blueprint as an example. You get a feature on say Ted. You gamble your feature from the bottom feature up to the big money. There is no conceivable way on earth that the bottom feature would pay even 10% of the top feature. Basic gameplay 100% is predetermined as is all about luck. Must say there is no "skill" involved in gambling a feature, again it's just luck.

[dirtystack]

 

Maybe when you hit bonus round on extra chilli the possible payouts are determined there and then;

0x for 0 spins,

1500x for 8 spins,

40x for 12 spins,

1000x for 20 spins,

400x for 24 spins.

 Where you stop gambling or whatever determines which, of the  predetermined figures calculated when you press spin, will be your reward.

 

 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, dirtystack said:

 

Maybe when you hit bonus round on extra chilli the possible payouts are determined there and then;

0x for 0 spins,

1500x for 8 spins,

40x for 12 spins,

1000x for 20 spins,

400x for 24 spins.

 Where you stop gambling or whatever determines which, of the  predetermined figures calculated when you press spin, will be your reward.

 

 

It's an interesting argument. There have been 100 posts about the Chilli gamble wheel. There is some "proof" from certain samples that wheel 2 loses more often than not which doesn't fit with the mathematical or logical model. Some even crying false representation. You know what, i think there is a bit of both. However, I'd say unless you can afford to lose a lot of money I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

[dirtystack]

Extra Chilli is just terrible for me, whether I spin or buy the feature, gamble or don't gamble.

77% rtp for me after 30000+ spins 

[SixtyHertz]

i've seen evidence that Blue Print's pickers are already determined, so it doesn't matter which you pick you will reveal what ever was determined... Usually when you do a picker this way they are not supposed to reveal the things you couldn't pick but i'm guessing if the odds of the pre-determined item are true (that is what they appear to be) they can display the ones you couldn't pick... for example if you have three lamps, there is still a 33% chance of picking any of the hidden choices it's just chosen before you have picked it then can display what you didn't pick... still seems a little cheap to me but mathematically it's fair...

Other pickers, usually ones tied to huge jackpots are pre-determined and you can tell this because they wont show you what you could have picked when you picked all you can... that's because what you picked isn't true, that is the chance of you getting the 4 golden orbs to unlock the top jackpot is not 4 out of 15 (assuming 15 items to choose - and yes 4/15 is actually not the real odds, it would be something like 1/15 x 1/14 x 1/13 x 1/12 but i'm too lazy to do that calc)... anyway, the odds are not 4/15 to get the 100k prize it's probably more like 1/100k or something...

 

[Andreas]

This is how it works:
If you can gamble a feature, you will get a different outcome if you choose to do it or not (Extra Chilli, Vikings Unleashed etc)

If you can select between features, depending on the one you pick there will be a different outcome (Danger High Voltage)

If you get to select between different things in a bonus round (not gamble it), but you only get revealed what you picked after the fact, the outcome was already determined when you pressed spin originally (Genie Jackpot, Dragon's fire, Wish upon a jackpot, loads and loads more games.)

 

All of these are fine and can be designed so that RTP is correct. To note is that if you do a 50/50 gamble in Extra Chilli and win, your bonus will on average pay out roughly twice as much as if you hadn't gambled. If it didn't, it wouldn't be ok to offer.

[Dbaird123]

What about games you can quickspin like blueprint ones? Surely the game can't send for a RNG wait for reply, get reply then decide how its played that fast. We have all seen how fast you can click those games even with a very slow internet speed

Also games like chilli I can believe that the actual win you get isn't predetermined until you click collect.

[pausefisk]

On 18/01/2019 at 10:24, Andreas said:

If you can select between features, depending on the one you pick there will be a different outcome (Danger High Voltage)

 

I had a gameround on DHV, where the game froze before i manage to pick the feature. It took a few days to sort it out, and my balance was credited with the outcome of the bonus. If the outcome is based on what you pick, how can that be possible in my case? Shouldnt i be able to play my round, or did the provider or casino choose my pick, and if so, would it be fair to ask me which result i want if they are different?

[Dbaird123]

1 hour ago, pausefisk said:

I had a gameround on DHV, where the game froze before i manage to pick the feature. It took a few days to sort it out, and my balance was credited with the outcome of the bonus. If the outcome is based on what you pick, how can that be possible in my case? Shouldnt i be able to play my round, or did the provider or casino choose my pick, and if so, would it be fair to ask me which result i want if they are different?

In those cases of frozen game the provided will often run 5 or 10 features and pay you the average result, happened to me on secrets of Christmas I had a frozen bonus round and the casino had to contact netent and that's exactly what happened they ran 10 bonuses and paid me the average result.

[grazer13]

Are you not effectively contradicting yourself when you say some games are predetermined and then you gamble, lose and end up with nothing. That's not predetermined.

[last1left91]

I also think everything is predetermined like, when the casino house wants to pay you then it will pay you. Why I'm telling this apparently nonsense. For example, lets take BOD for example: How many times happened to all of us that it hits 2 scatters 3 or 4 times in a row and didn't want you to get the bonus until the time has come. You also expect from hand to hand to finally receive the bonus and you know it will happen very soon as you observe that the 2 scatters hands come more and more frequently and finally this is what happens, you get the bonus. Then, when a "random" card is choosen. If you had the luck that let's say 5-10 session before it gave a small card, then you have the luck to get a character on your session. I might be paranoical but this is how I feel like.

Then, an even better example reel heist, where you're spending a lot of money while the cop chasing the thief and you get nothing because it wasn't meant to bring you any winnings at that time. Reel Heist and Reactoonz are the best arguments that not everything  that happens behind the slots is random or luck. On reactoonz it happened plenty of time to make no combination just before Gargantoon being released. I released it a few times though but never won big. From what I played so far I can say that only big time gaming are 100% random and correct. What do you guys think!?

On 20/01/2019 at 17:20, Dbaird123 said:

What about games you can quickspin like blueprint ones? Surely the game can't send for a RNG wait for reply, get reply then decide how its played that fast. We have all seen how fast you can click those games even with a very slow internet speed

Also games like chilli I can believe that the actual win you get isn't predetermined until you click collect.

Exactly. Napoleon, for example. Best scammy slot ever...also the goonies. All the games with random features are not trustworthy!!

[dirtystack]

Are you kidding me.

If you have some doubt about the speed at which information can be communicated across the internet then perhaps you should, I don't know, search the internet and inform yourself about the speed at which information is communicated. 

Surely.

Exactly.

You are noticing the lack of the final connection to trigger Garga a lot more then any other connection because it is close to triggering Garga, it hits you more, resonates with you more then when you miss the connection to take you to 50% of the third bar been filled. 

This thread is just so full of confirmation bias, deluded gut feelings, and conjecture from people who possible lack the ability to figure anything out in a logical manner.

If you think it is so rigged then you should investigate, learn everything there is to actually learn, go and work for one of these slot providers so you can find out whats really going on. But you won't, because it requires rationale to accomplish such a feat.

I could actually do this as I am in the business anyway, I could find out from IGT. The thing is, no matter what I or anyone else were to say, it would be met with disbelief based on self confirming observation "exactly" and "surely" and "I think".

 

[J_B_T]

I have seen the same thing on Goonies. Even before i picked a bonus (spinned the wheel) my balance was updated and it was exact as I won in bonus that i ended up with. So yeah, choices don't make a difference, the bonuses are predetermined and that's it. 

[frebby]

When it comes to bonuses i know for sure that microgaming ones are pre-determined as i had a malfunction once and was kicked out and i contacted support because i was worried i might have lost it and they transfered me to a mg tech that explained me that they know the outcome the second we click and the bonus itself is just "for the show" and not to worry even if i can't recover the bonus they know what i won and can add it back to my balance. As for raw play i can't really tell exactly if the session itself and your "career" is pre-determined/tracked but one thing i know for sure (i proved it and can still prove it and demonstrated it through hundreds of sessions and attempts) that deposit bonuses/free spins are pre-determined. What i mean is the second you deposit with a bonus when it is added to your account the casino/system knows if you win or not and how much. It's pretty much like buying a scratch ticket, no matter when how where you do it the result will be the same. What i means is that while wagering slots rtp and variance is irrelevan. Some funny ways to test it yourself to see how it's not random is find a casino with max cash out. There is one group that give daily reloads with 10x max cash out for as low as 10$ deposit. You play them and once you got one that balance is way over the maximum cash out then you are pretty much guaranteed to win so the rng go loose and you win everything everywhere. I had fun trolling and getting 10+10 and 10+20 deposits all over 1000$. When it's pre-determined for you to lose, no matter what you bet or what you play you will not win. I tested it for weeks everyday on casinos that have big max bet on wager and allow table games. When i figure i will rip (usually pretty obvious as eveyrthing turn stone cold dead to 0) then i would go put my balance on roulette bet to triple up then once tripled up go back on slots lose then return triple up lose return and everytime i couldnt do nothing. Once i have been able to triple up my balance 12 times, it was insane roulette luck but pointless since it wasnt wagering so i had to return to slots and the RTP was constnat 10%. Of course casinos will deny this as it's not what they advertise and if people would know for sure that bonuses are pre-determined it would kill the fun as you know suddenly that what you do is completly pointless and irrelevant. What slot, what bet, totally pointless just as much as picking bonuses in slots. Does that mean you cannot win? Absolutely not. All it means is that instead of spinning rng everytime you click to spin the slot instead the rng is used when you deposit to determine the outcome a bit like when you buy a bonus on a slot. Once you figure that out and see that in fact there are not that many different series of outcome you can predict the outcome. People ask me how i do to predict the outcome as they see me doing it and cant believe i know what will happen but it's not a crystal ball, it's juste experience and thousands of bonuses that after some time your brain recognize what is going. I can predict the outcome 99%, but there is still that 1% that is huge win as it's very rare but some bonuses are set to make you rip and you 100% sure you are going to lose then near death boom omega win and then it just never ends winning. I would like to know what casinos have to say about this other than pretending it's all random, this will not work with me since i know how to prove it and already did multiple times either offstream or on stream.

Fun fact, where you are wagering a bonus pre-determined to lose, if you have plenty of wager ahead and bet low you'll get some wins or even big wins because the system has room ahead to take it back. That's why very often people will wonder why they were doing good then raise bet and rip... it's simple on the first bet the system had room but on the higher bet it didn't have enough room on the wager to give you anything so it goes ahead with the rip. Most common bonus outcome and you will recognize it is when you start and early on you hit huge to then rip everywhere to 0. We call it the RTP DUMP. Where the system drops you all your session winnings early on to trigger you and make you believe you're going to have a big payday to then cut your legs and rip you. There are also the isntant rips, these we can't do much about them but one thing i do when i rip everywhere and just want to see some action i deposit with big bonus and do small bets that's how you can have wins even if result is a loss. My friend and I when bored of losing we do, on purpose, the deposit with big wager and small bet to have some action and we almost always get it as the only time it doesnt work is when we hit a bonus that is pre-determined to instantly rip. Since it's pre-determined i really dont get why casinos set up instant rip bonuses as it's really annoying and they are killing the fun of the player for no reason. Is it to save on providers expenses? If so it's brutal to give 0 fun to a player for his money for the sake of saving a tiny bit. But anyway, instead of jumping on me calling me names and say it's wrong and bla bla, if you are curious just test it yourself doing what i said i was doing and you'll see ;P.

[dirtystack]

Deposit bonuses cannot be predetermined to lose as there are ways, depending on what games they allow you to play, to beat them almost every time.

I've never failed to clear a deposit bonus on a certain casino group, its not massively profitable what I am doing but it has yet to fail. Mathematically it would be possible to fail but it hasn't thus far in 30-40 odd deposit bonuses.

Its working so well for me that every now and then I will deposit and intentionally lose as I don't want to get barred.

 

[The Reel Story]

Seeing all sorts of conflicting information in this thread (although lots of correct information as well). I used to work in the industry and used to integrate games to a gaming platform before running the business unit that made that platform. I also trained many of the common developers on how to do game integrations to that platform when they first started (Blueprint, Push Gaming, Next Generation Gaming, Quickspin, Ash Gaming to name a few). (P.S, this gaming platform no longer exists, and those developers now use their own or someone elses, but the techniques and the premises are still the same) I've done a couple of videos on this topic on my channel, so please do watch the below and i'll explain it. If you have any questions after watching the videos, please drop them here and i'll answer them. Also, if you feel like it, subscribe to the channel if you liked the vids

Bottom line, it comes down to CHOICE, and not fake choice like picking lamps. REAL choice (I.E, do I gamble or not (Chilli) or which bonus do I pick (DHV). When there is REAL choice, the pre-determination stops there and waits for the choice. Once chosen, the rest of the result is generated up to the end (or the next REAL choice). BTG is the exception, they hit the RNG for every single spin (very inefficient but seems to be their thing).

Also worth noting, that pre-determination (I.E, generating the whole result up front, where possible) is standard industry practice and is efficient both from a computing and bandwidth standpoint. The result is still random. Pre-determined does NOT mean the result is rigged. Everything is still random.

 

 

 

[JonnyWalker]

Nice videos

 

[Hans-Martin]

Nice vids! 

[Peachyslots]

Some people in the comments on Bandits videos, back when he played Secrets of Christmas regularly, noticed ( and I checked , it's true ) how the candle wild is ALWAYS in the airplane, unless you pick the airplane, then the candle wild moves one to the left. It only seems possible to get the candle wild when it's in one of the other 2 pick rounds. So it ( and other slots like secrets of the stones I assume ) just gives you what you're supposed to get no matter what you pick, shows clearly in that. They coulda made it so the ones you didn't pick just filled the other symbols randomly lol, not put that candle wild in the same one every time. It's a bit obvious that way XD

Napoleon "predetermined" the 1682x win I posted couple days ago for me btw, I can't say I have a problem with that

Only when you get a zero bonus/ random feature ( got plenty of those on Napoleon too ) it feels like you got scammed hehe 

[The Reel Story]

1 hour ago, PeachyPeach said:

So it ( and other slots like secrets of the stones I assume ) just gives you what you're supposed to get no matter what you pick, shows clearly in that. They coulda made it so the ones you didn't pick just filled the other symbols randomly lol, not put that candle wild in the same one every time.

Absolutely right. Any bonus where you pick like that, the result is already generated. Doesn't matter what thing you click on. 

Normally the other results, if revealed, would be random. The thing with the candle is just lazy development (or a bug). 

Also worth noting that in a picking bonus, the number of selections has no bearing on the odds of getting a result. I.e if there are 3 lamps, the odds are not 1 in 3 of getting the best thing. Far from it. The best thing will have very low odds. This is a bit disingenuous (and why i dislike pick bonuses) but it is legal. 

[Mr. Santoro]

The funniest thing about it is that we think how we are in control of spinning, but everything is actually predetermined. 
In my case I am only playing and waiting for luck to strike me. I know for sure that they must give sometimes something big. And I wanna be there first when it happens.